I happened to find a discussion of 'til, till and until on OEDILF, and coinicidentally I had just read a Q&A in Bierma's column where he had discussed these words:

quote:

Q. In a recent column you used the phrase "people who leave their lights up till May." I have been under the impression that the word "till" may be used as a verb ("till the soil") or a noun ("put the money into the till") but that when one really means "until" one should use the shortened form, 'til.

-- James Wilson, Chicago

A. I used to think so too, till (there it is again) linguist Geoffrey Pullum corrected this myth last year at Language Log (www.languagelog.org). "'Until' is actually an early 15th Century embellishment of 'till,' made by adding 'on' before it (as in 'Keep right on till the end of the road')," he wrote. "Eventually the two merged into one word, and the two synonyms lived alongside each other happily ever after. The word 'till' is older, and has always been correct. It has never been a contraction or shortening."

Pullum said the same is true of "though" and "although."

I didn't think much of the OEDILF discussion until I found that they are searching their whole system to change the 'tils to either till or until. Is 'til that unacceptable now? I mean, I find 316,000,000 uses of 'til on Google (with 695M uses of until and 299M of till), so it's hardly going out of style. Should it be?

OED Online:

quote:

'til

Var. of TILL prep., conj. or short for UNTIL prep. and conj.

1939 P. G. PERRIN Index to Eng. 606 Till, until, ('til), these three words are not distinguishable in meaning. Since 'til in speech sounds the same as till and looks slightly odd on paper, it may well be abandoned. 1956 H. KURNITZ Invasion of Privacy iii. 27 You sit on your tail 'til they come up with another story. 1978 M. DUFFY House-spy v. 126, I shall have to tell the P.M. but not 'til I'm sure.

Tinman

quote:

I found that they are searching their whole system to change the 'tils to either till or until.

Good grief. can't they find better things to do, such as writing limericks? I agree with the OED, all three variants ('til, till, or until) can be used interchangeably. What is wrong is til without an apostrophe.

Gee, I remember a circular workshopping discussion about one of my limericks because I had used "'til." One of the WEs who was British set me straight about "till" being a legitimate spelling of the word. I had never seen that spelling of "'til" before.

Guess I'd better go turn in my limerick (NOT.) You're right, Arnie, but I think OEDILF may have a little OCD.

WM

The backformation 'til is no worse than irregardless or orientate, i.e., something I wouldn't care to do in writing, but I would defend other's right to used it. Just entre nous I find the whole Edleaf apparatus just a bit Stalinesque.

quote:

Good grief. can't they find better things to do, such as writing limericks?

Don't forget, in a publication that seeks to be permanent, rather than simply a collection of transitory messages, it's important to agree, and keep to, a house style.

It seems only right to me that OEDILF should decide which abbreviation or form they will use when wanting a single-syllable word that means "until" and make sure that all limerick use it.

Well, in all fairness, Richard, you were one in that discussion who was in favor of changing the tills. Surely there needs to be some consistency, I agree. But going in to change all the limericks (did you see the number involved???) with a perfectly acceptable word seems over the top to me. Besides...what if people don't agree? They can't change limericks without getting agreement from the authors, and that in itself will be a nightmare. I am not sure if I have a 'til limerick, but if I do, I'd not change it; I'd delete it from the system first, simply because the evidence is clear to me that the 3 words are all acceptable and it's a matter of choice.

I have to go with the OED, which says the 3 words aren't distinguishable in meaning. Though, in fairness, their next sentence, in citing P. G. PERRIN (1939; Index to Eng. 606), is: "Since 'til in speech sounds the same as till and looks slightly odd on paper, it may well be abandoned." I don't think it looks slightly odd at all; it is a perfectly acceptable way of using an apostrophe (similar to contractions such as isn't).

I don't agree with you, z, in comparing 'til to orientate or irregardless. You saw what the OED said about 'til. For orientate the OED says that the word is more commonly used in British English than is orient, and they go on to say that orientate" is commonly regarded as an incorrect usage" in American English. For irregardless they say it's "non-standard." The OED says that both those words aren't standard (albeit orientate is only not acceptable in American English). On the other hand, 'til is perfectly standard according to the OED.

I see no problem, whatsoever, in using 'til, till or until, at least if you use the OED as your source.

For the record, there are 89 uses of 'til here, though a few times people used til (I agree that's incorrect), but only a few.

[Edited for clarification on an OED citation.]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,

quote:

Well, in all fairness, Richard, you were one in that discussion who was in favor of changing the tills.

I don't think so. My only comment, as I recall, was bemoaning the fact that I had changed one spelling of till/'til/ to the WE's recommendation only to discover that it is now not in accordance with the new standard.

quote:

to the WE's recommendation

Let me guess ... Workshopping editor?

WE = Workshopping Editor. I'd forgotten that this isn't OEDILF

I no longer participate in OEDILF ... to have some "editor" suggest changes to my original work is like having someone respond to something I have said with "IN OTHER WORDS .... "

(when I naturaly feel that my own words were right, proper, and adequate)

.... but that's just me .... as the feller said

I have found the workshopping process to be most helpful. I consider all suggestions made and accept many of them. The standards of OEDILF limericks are generally very high and I believe that much of this is due to the workshopping process.

quote:

I corrected my own use of "tiil/til/'til/'till" in one of my own limericks - but can't now remember whether the correction accords with this most recent thinking.

That was your comment, Richard. I took the "but can't now remember whether the correction accords with this most recent thinking" to support their most recent thinking to axe all 'tils. I see no point in doing that at this point in time. I do agree that language evolves, and I very well might change my mind in a few years if, as the OED predicts, it is abandoned because it looks funny on paper. Right now, I see no evidence that there is anything at all wrong with 'til, except of course that a few grammar mavens enjoy sniffing at what they define as errors.

I'd like to point out that the OED does not predict the demise of 'til. Rather, it quotes P. G. Perrin as saying in 1939 that 'til "may well be abandoned" because it sounds the same as till and "looks slightly odd on paper." The OED, as far as I know, makes no such prediction.

Tinman

quote:

That was your comment, Richard. I took the "but can't now remember whether the correction accords with this most recent thinking" to support their most recent thinking to axe all 'tils.

I wasn't supporting (or rejecting) the suggestion. I had changed something I wrote at a WE's suggestion, that's all. I suspect that it was my piece that prompted the discussion - but that's my only connection with the saga. I certainly haven't been back to look at my limericks for "tills and "'tils". There's no need to look for "untils" since they won't have been used as an alternative; they don't scan the same way.

quote:

The OED, as far as I know, makes no such prediction.

You are correct, Tinman. I just edited that comment.

I was thinking about z's remark that he'd not use 'til in writing. While I don't agree that it compares to orientate or irregardless, I do agree that I'd not use 'til or till in formal writing. For instance, I might use 'til in an email, but I'd not use it in a paper for publication. If I were to, the editor would most likely change it. I suppose I'm wrong not to use till since it actually preceded until, but it seems informal to me. I compare 'til to not using contractions, such as isn't in formal writing. Boy, my editors really hate isn't and don't.

I would use isn't in a limerick, along with 'til or till. The latter would be valuable when you only want one syllable. I don't consider limericks formal writing.

I wouldn't use 'til [sic] unless I postponed a sic to it. But, seriously, I said for me they're the same as irregardless and orientate: I'd only use them in a meta-arch-twee manner.

What's the problem? (Dare I say hubbub?) EdLeaf has a house style guide of usage. This is the only kind of prescriptivism I'm for. None of your "Do this because it's logical, historical, classist, or moral thing to do (and, probably more to the point, because I say it is)" sorts of hysteria. Do this because it says you have to in this collection of arbitrary usage fiats. You have an editor, a house style guide, and some writers. The writers should bend to the will of editor, as long as s/he's backed up by the style guide, or find a new job. (Easy enough, just add a new decree at the end of the last edition.) Problem is, it grates. People don't like having their foibles, mistakes, and dirty, little, usage secrets criticized. Ah, that is life.

What you are saying is to acquiesce. I suppose you make a point.

They use the CMS, and I don't recall their position on this, but I find the CMS quite flexible and not prescriptive. I doubt they'd say never use 'til, especially in informal writing such as a limerick. I suspect the proclamation about 'til is a personal one.

Find a new job? OEDILFers are all volunteers, as is the editor.

"foibles, mistakes, and dirty, little, usage secrets"? I'd not call 'til that. Epicaricacy, yes. 'Til, no.

We'll agree to disagree on this one.

So you are not going to complain if I use til' or ti'l are you, Kalleh?

The reason for 'til is that it is shortened from until, so I would have to complain, I am afraid.

Given the strong feelings here about 'til being wrong, along with my respect for our esteemed members, I think I will have to change my mind. I no longer will use 'til.

There...I am not as stubborn as I look....well, except for my thoughts on my favorite word.