Shu and I were talking tonight, and we wondered, what is the difference between a nativity scene and a creche? I know that creche means crib, but this is another definition (from Dictionary.com): "a small or large modeled representation or tableau of Mary, Joseph, and others around the crib of Jesus in the stable at Bethlehem, as is displayed in homes or erected for exhibition in a community at Christmas season."

I have always thought they were synonymous.

They seem to be the same, as evidenced by these definitions from the OED Online.

• crèche, n. (first citation: 1792)
  2. A representation of the infant Jesus in the manger, with attending figures, often displayed at Christmas; = CRIB n. 1b.
  
  
• crib,n.
  I. 1. a.. A barred receptacle for fodder used in cowsheds and fold-yards; also in fields, for beasts lying out during the winter; a CRATCH. (In nearly all early quots. applied to the manger in which the infant Christ was laid; cf. CRATCH n.) (first citation: a1000)
  
  I. 1. b. (Orig. in R.C. Ch.) A representation of the manger in which the infant Christ was laid, erected in churches. (first citation: 1885)
  
  
• cratch, n.
  1. b. spec. applied to the ‘manger’ at Bethlehem where the infant Jesus was laid. Obs. or arch. (first citation: a1225)
  
  
• nativity scene (under nativity, n)
  a painting, model, tableau, etc., representing the story of the birth of Jesus, esp. as put on display at Christmas; a passage of verse or scene of a drama depicting a part of this story. (first citation: 1903)

From Wikipedia :

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A nativity scene, also called a crib or crèche (meaning "crib" or "manger" in French) generally refers to any depiction of the birth or birthplace of Jesus.

Odd. I've never actually come across that definition of creche. I wonder if any other Brits have.

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I've never actually come across that definition of creche. I wonder if any other Brits have.

I have, but not often. Usually "nativity scene" is used. Crèche tends to be used for a place were babies are looked after; a day-care centre.

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I have, but not often. Usually "nativity scene" is used. Crèche tends to be used for a place were babies are looked after; a day-care centre.

Yes, that was the first definition in the OED Online:

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1. A public nursery for infants; an institution where the infant children of poor women are taken care of while their mothers are at work, or in hospitals, etc. In later use, a day nursery for babies and young children. Also transf.

The first time I heard the word creche used it was a Catholic family (my family is Protestant), and I was about 8 years old. We always called it a Nativity Scene or, even more obviously, the Manger Scene. For a long time I assumed that creche was just a Catholic term. I guess I still have that feeling, now that I think about it. My thought was that Catholics (in my experience as a child) had foreign names for religious things.

I have never heard it used in any context other than that of Jesus' birthplace.

Crèche is the word used for a nativity scene in Quebec; maybe that's how it came to be used in the U.S.

Creche is the Type-3 for the Type-1 nativity

There's no Type-2 synonym unless it's crib, but in my 78th year I'd never heard the word used that way

The mention of creche reminds me of a Catalan Christmas tradition: the caganer (pooper or crapper).

Defecating on his falcata? Let's hope he doesn't slip!

Rembrandt wasn't above such statements as that made by the caganer either: http://www.abcgallery.com/R/rembrandt/rembrandt111.html

Since christmas literally means, "christ's mass," why do those who don't "do" mass celebrate it?

Felis dies natalis solis invicti!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: <Asa Lovejoy>,

Around our office, the latest nativity scene story is about the 3-year-old granddaughter of one of my co-workers who insists on calling her family's manger scene "the activity scene." Seems appropriate.

Wordmatic

Great story, WM! Kids have a great way of making their own vocabularies fit their perceptions of the world.

I'll never forget the first Christmas when my oldest daughter really noticed things...she was 2. Not being Christian, we don't have Christmas decorations in our home, so after everyone put up all their trees and lights, we went out one night. Our daughter started squealing with, "Look at all the decoRAtions!" She's a lawyer now and she says she still enjoys looking at all the Christmas lights.

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Not being Christian, we don't have Christmas decorations in our home

I believe that one of the benefits of living in a Christian country (as is the UK) while not being Christian is that you can celebrate both Christian festivals (such as Christmas) and your own festivals as well.

Many firms allow those of different faiths to observe both their own holy days and Christian holidays - so they get extra days off simply by not being Christian. Mind you, that doesn't apply if you're atheist.

Yes. Why aren't there any atheist festivals. I think we should campaign for some!

There's always Festivus for the rest of us.

A friend of mine, who is a Vietnam vet, was in the USAF. When he was drafted, he was asked his faith. He told them atheist, but the guy said that would not be possible, so he said Jewish instead. He got both Saturdays and Sundays off.

I happily and unashamedly am a Christian and celebrate Christmas (as well as Easter). I know that the cultural holidays are based on pagan rituals. I love them, though. I consider these holidays and the truth behind them to be part of who I am as a person. I also love being able to not have to worry about work for a few days each year. Yay!

I'm also hoping that the storm front that is due to pass through tomorrow will come earlier enough to give me a Snow Day - but I doubt it will get here before noon.

Sigh.

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I believe that one of the benefits of living in a Christian country (as is the UK) while not being Christian is that you can celebrate both Christian festivals (such as Christmas) and your own festivals as well.

And why would you think that's not possible in countries that aren't Christian, such as the U.S.? We certainly can (and do) celebrate Hannukah, and other religions celebrate their non-Christian holidays. I wasn't complaining about not putting up decorations; I was merely describing what I thought was a sweet and funny story about my daughter. <sigh>

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And why would you think that's not possible in countries that aren't Christian, such as the U.S.?

All I meant was that, because ours is officially a Christian country all Christian holidays are celebrated and by Law are therefore public holidays. In a country with no official religion there would be no official religious holidays. So, although those who choose to celebrate their own faith's holidays might be able to get that time off, they wouldn't be able to take the "official" faith's public holidays as there will be none.

So, in the UK Christians (and everyone else, including atheists) get to take time off on Christian holidays - and Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and goodness knows who else - get to take their own faith's holidays as well.

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Originally posted by Richard English:
[QUOTE]… So, in the UK Christians (and everyone else, including atheists) get to take time off on Christian holidays - and Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and goodness knows who else - get to take their own faith's holidays as well.

Why bring religion into this? You shouldn't need excuses to enjoy festivities and family get-togethers. Or should you?

Richard is right. For example next Wednesday (or possibly Thursday) is the second Eid. All but one of my class are Moslems and therefore won't be in college for that day. The one who is Christian has complained to me that he is expected to be there when they are not while everybody gets to take the Christmas holidays.

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Why bring religion into this? You shouldn't need excuses to enjoy festivities and family get-togethers. Or should you?

That wasn't my point at all. In religious countries religious holidays are typically public holidays. That means that people get a day or two off from their employment which is in addition to their holiday (vacation) allowance. Those who have a religion other than that of the country can often take two sets of holidays - as Bob cites in his posting.

Countries that have no official religion have no religious holidays and thus employees might not get so much time off. Indeed, I believe that the USA is particularly hard done by in this regard with Americans getting fewer statutory holidays (and less vacation time - none at all is actually mandated) than do most of us in Europe - especially the UK where we now have the statutory right to 4.8 weeks from 1st October 2007, and to 5.6 weeks from 1st April 2009. Some companies actually give even more time than the Law dictates

Of course, if (like me) you're self-employed then you can work whenever you like - you just have to like working all the time!

Richard, I get your point, but interestingly, even though the official listings of the holidays in the U.S. may not say what holiday they are aligned with, they certainly seem to follow some of the Christian church calendar, especially at Christmas and Easter, but not a lot of saints days. Well, a few political "saints"--Washington, Lincoln and King--but that's it. Actually, I think the government does refer to them as Christmas and Easter, for just two. My place of work does not, and in fact we get nothing off for Easter. We get the week from just before Christmas through New Year's but it is called "winter break."

I remember the first time I visited England I arrived on something called a "bank holiday." I kept trying to find out why it was a bank holiday--thinking there must be some commemorative day associated with it, but the cab driver and my friends couldn't seem to come up with any kind of an answer. Well, the cab driver thought it might be "Whitsun' or something," so apparently your publicly mandated Christian holidays aren't widely understood as such. They're just days off, which is nice.

Wordmatic

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so apparently your publicly mandated Christian holidays aren't widely understood as such. They're just days off, which is nice.

We have both. Good Friday and Christmas Day, for example, are public holidays that fall on Christian holy days. But New Year's Day and August Bank Holiday have no religious significance but are still public holidays.

I don't know for sure why we call them Bank Holidays, but assume it's something to do with the fact that the banks do no business on such days.

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I don't know for sure why we call them Bank Holidays

Possibly because they were introduced by the Bank Holiday Act of 1871.

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So, in the UK Christians (and everyone else, including atheists) get to take time off on Christian holidays - and Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and goodness knows who else - get to take their own faith's holidays as well.

Okay, I see your point. Here most it depends on the business as to whether you get other religious holidays off. In some jobs I got all the Jewish holidays off (and there are many!). In others, such as my current one, I need to take my vacation days. I suppose if I put up a big fuss, I could at least change that to taking my sick days (of which I have many!), but I have enough vacation days at this point.

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Possibly because they were introduced by the Bank Holiday Act of 1871.

Which, of course, then gives rise to the question, why was the Act thus named?

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Why bring religion into this? You shouldn't need excuses to enjoy festivities and family get-togethers. Or should you?

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That wasn't my point at all.

Pity that the icon doesn't have a little brother with tongue in cheek.

I think most of us understood you, Pearce. Richard probably read it fast (as I do from time to time) and just missed your intent.

That tongue in cheek icon would be fun, though.

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Richard probably read it fast (as I do from time to time) and just missed your intent.

No. I read it well. Joke or not the comment was about something quite different from my point.

Enjoyment can be had at any time; public holidays can only be taken at the behest of the Government. What people choose to do on the mandated holidays is up to them.

Richard, Pearce just meant it in a very lighthearted way; thus the wish for the tongue in cheek icon.

Found a link with much creative use of qwerty, such as:

:-J tongue in cheek

Funny!

There were a lot of fun ones there, but Dolly Parton was my favorite: :-) 8