The ever-so-slight (which is to say non-existent to most people) difference between the pronunciations of "horse" and "hoarse" is covered in another thread.

Are there other pairs (or more) of words in which you make a slight distinction pronunciation-wise but which most other people can't be bothered with?

Many. Paw, pore, poor and pour - for example.

Richard English

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Many. Paw, pore, poor and pour - for example.

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Ok, again, where I come from, pore, poor, and pour are homonyms. However, paw, sounds nothing like the other three except for the initial "p".

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Originally posted by Morgan:

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Many. Paw, pore, poor and pour - for example.

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Ok, again, where I come from, pore, poor, and pour are homonyms. However, _paw_, sounds nothing like the other three except for the initial "p".

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And I pronounce paw, pour and pore as homonyms but not poor.

Isn't English wonderful ?

Quid quid latine dictum sit, altum viditur

Read all about my travels around the world here.

Another trio is "marry-merry-Mary", which can be either identical or different, depending on the speaker's accent.

I have great difficulty hearing any difference between the w and wh sounds at the start of a word, as in the pairs "which/witch" or "where/wear". My guess is that there are only a few regional accents (Bostonian?) that distinguish these sounds.

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I have great difficulty hearing any difference between the w and wh sounds at the start of a word, as in the pairs "which/witch" or "where/wear".

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Funny, I hear the difference when i say "which and witch" but "where and wear" are the same!

What? Not again! Wasn't that AEIOU thread hard enough on me?
How could you pronounce "paw","pore", "poor", "pour" the same? Maybe "pore" and "pour", though I pronounce them differently. I "pooourrr" a cup of coffee, but my "pore" is clogged. "Poor" has more of an "oooo" sound, and "paw" has the "aw" sound, as in "awful"--with no "r"!
I do think everyone is just trying to drive me to distraction, and I must say that you are succeeding!

As I wrote previously, there are many different ways of pronouncing words. Homonyms are only homonyms where the local pronunciation dictates that they are.

I would suggest that casual speakers will pronounce "paw/pore/poor/pour as homonynms; more careful or sophisticated speakers will differentiate between them. However, the differentiation will vary according to the speaker's own accent.

Whereas I will defend vigourously accurate grammatical usage I am far more laid back about pronunciation. Accents are are one of the aspect of language that I find quite fascinating.

And, incidentally, the ONLY people perceived to be without an accent are those who have the same accent as the perceiver!

Richard English

It amazes me how much variation in accent there is in the county of my birth - Northumberland. From where I live in Morpeth, there is a village one and a half miles away named Pegswood whose inhabitants have subtle differences in intonation to the degree that they are identifiable as Pegswoodians. Another two miles up the road is the mining village of Ashington whose residents also have identifiable differences in accent. These variations are not limited to accents. There are many words which are peculiar to particular towns or areas which may not be understood by someone from a locality ten miles away.
If anyone is interested, there is a site at www.geordiepride.demon.co.uk/geordiestuff.htm which gives some interesting examples of the Geordie dialect, including some bible translations!

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Originally posted by Kalleh:
I do think everyone is just trying to drive me to distraction, and I must say that you are succeeding!

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That's not a drive, Kalleh. It's a short walk!

Regarding the rest, I agree. "Paw" rhymes with "raw" and "poor" rhymes with "tour" so no homoponication (word?) there. "Pour" and "pore" are pretty much identical to me but I notice that in your explanation you use the phrase "My pore is clogged." You have a pore? Just one??

Pity that's it's clogged.

FatStan, that link was great. Thanks. And the English say that the Americans are destroying the English language!

Well, CJ, I believe I was pushing the envelope a bit with "pore" and "pour". Of course after you repeat them over & over, you will hear them differently. However,"poor" rhymes with "tour"? How do you say "tournament"? You don't say "toornament", right? Isn't there more of an "or" sound with "tour" and an "oo" sound with "poor"? You're right, though, I've already driven myself waaaay past distraction!

FatStan, welcome Back! We have missed your voice!

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"poor" rhymes with "tour"

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Not here, CJ!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Morgan:
FatStan, welcome Back! We have missed your voice!


Thank you for the welcome, though I haven't been astray,
Just doing very little with nothing much to say.

"Thank you for the welcome, though I haven't been astray,
Just doing very little with nothing much to say."

Perhaps I read too much in this; your post is rather subtle:
Are you issuing a challenge that we post in rhyming couple?

Perhaps I read too much in this; your post is rather subtle:
Are you issuing a challenge that we post in rhyming couple?[/QUOTE]


If others want to do this, I cannot say I mind,
But I'm not a poet and words are hard to find.

I'm not averse to verses, but let's give them their own thread
Leave this one to its topic and post them there instead !

Quid quid latine dictum sit, altum viditur

Read all about my travels around the world here.

As you'd know had you studied elsewhere
I've rhyming enough and to spare
but the only form I'll
write is Limerick style
and I'll write nothing else - so there.

Richard English

To Morgan & Kalleh:

Yes, not only do I say "toornament" but I don't know of anyone who pronounces that word differently. Are you saying that you pronounce that first syllable as "tore" as in "I won the Master's tournament ("tore-nament") and then tore the green coat the next day."??

Actually, come to think of it, some people pronounce "poor" to rhyme with "more." With me, it rhymes with the "ler" in the first part of "learn."

The following is from Rhymezone:

Words and phrases that rhyme with tour: (91 results)

1 syllable:
bloor, boor, buhr, cure, duerr, fluhr, foor, fuhr, gloor, jure, luhr, lure, moor, moore, muhr, muir, poor, poore, pure, ruhr, schnoor, schuur, shure, spoor, stuhr, suhr, suhre, suire, sure, ture, uhr, ur, you're, your

2 syllables:
allure, assure, badour, baldur, bijur, bonjour, brochure, couture, damour, demure, detour, de jure, dufour, endure, ensure, faith cure, for sure, gilmour, gochnour, impure, insure, inure, jabbour, lacour, lancour, latour, lesure, lumpur, make pure, make sure, manure, mature, mosur, obscure, procure, rednour, secure, segur, stamour, that you're, unsure, what you're

3 syllables:
amanpour, beladur, green manure, haute couture, immature, marston moor, pimplapure, premature, reassure, reinsure, to be sure

4 syllables:
entrepreneur, kuala lumpur, observateur

6 syllables:
battle of marston moor

I think most of us would agree that not all of these word rhyme. But perhaps they do in different parts of the English-speaking world.

The only one-syllable word on the list I see that comes close to rhyming with tour to me is you're. Poor, pore, more moor, shore, core, spoor, and sore all rhyme with each other to my ear, but none of them rhyme with tour. Some of the words, such as stuhr, suhr, suhre, and suire, I've never even seen before.

Tinman

My dear CJ, have you ever listened to the NCAA tournament games? Yes, it is "torenament" (not quite right; again it is so hard to write about pronounciation). I used to say "toornament" and have gotten roundly criticized. They mock my "midwest twang"--just as they do when I say "Oregon.

I find that the longer I talk with folks from around the country, the more my pronunciations change.

My pronunciations of the words: "Chicago, office, and coffee" have definitely changed lately!

Has anyone else experienced this phenomenon?

Oh, yes, Morgan! I am now working with a woman who has a West Virginian southern accent. By the end of the day, I am saying "you'all" (or however you spell it), with a true southern accent!

One-syllable words that rhyme with "poor" that I've never heard before (except, occasionally, as proper names) and, if anyone used them in my presence, I'd slap them with a wet fish:

bloor, buhr, duerr, fluhr, foor, fuhr, gloor, jure, luhr, moor, poore (as in "Ye Olde Poore House"? Puleeze!), schnoor, schuur, (Dictionary.com didn't even know those last two.) shure (an intentional misspelling?!), stuhr, suhr, suhre, suire, uhr,

And I won't even get into the longer words. Does this mean I am undereducated?

I do notice that "detour" supposedly rhymes with "poor" but "tour" doesn't. Hmphh!

And when does "manure" have just two syllables or "kuala lumpur" (which I notice they didn't capitalize) just four? Isn't it pronounced "mah-NOO-er"? Or is that just a roundabout deTOOR into a discussion we've already had? And what is "green manure"? No, wait! Don't tell me. Some things are better left unexplained.

Dictionary.com also had no idea as to what "pimplapure" might be. Sounds like a word describing an unblemished blemish.

And which is correct, "Oregon" or Oregun"?

I guess the bottom line is that variance is the spice of life (Now there's a near-miss axiom for you!) and that correcting another's pronunciation will always make for a dicey situation. Unless, of course, that person says something like "Supposably, there's fillum in the camera" in which case it's wet fish time with my blessings!

For my job I do a monthly teleconference call of all the states, and I do a roll call. After the first call, I got roundly criticized for my prounciation of Oregon. I think the problem is that I accent the "gon", and you are supposed to accent the "Ore". At any rate, I spent about 15 minutes repeating it correctly before my next teleconference call, and then maimed it again!

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Originally posted by C J Strolin:
And what is "green manure"? No, wait! Don't tell me. Some things are better left unexplained.

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A "green manure" is a cover crop that's planted on a field in the fall to protect the soil from wind and rain erosion during the winter and to provide mineral nutrients to the soil when it is plowed under in the spring. Disappointed?

Tinman

In UK English unstressed vowels are hardly pronounced. So Oregon would have the initial "O" clearly pronounced and also the "e". However, the final "o" would simply take an indeterminate "uh" sound.

This sound is much the same regardless of the actual vowel and this eccentricity of proununciation is a source of much puzzlement to those whose native tongues are phonetic!

I have a feeling that US English speakers tend to pronounce unstressed vowels more accurately than do we, but I am prepared to be proved wrong.

Richard English

Thanks, Tinman, for the green manure info even though I specifically requested the topic be avoided. And no, I'm not disappointed. Relieved actually. It makes for a perfectly reasonable and non-offensive term.

And R.E., I'd have to disagree. I think that pretty much every non-stressed vowel has that dull boring "uh" sound over here as well. I've always thought that the obsiquious schwa (Now there's an interesting name for a rock group!) was a sign of linguistic laziness but just try to pronounce every vowel and see what reactions you get. Personal experience speaking, here.

At one point during the mid-70's I was under the mistaken belief that militant Iranian students shared my feelings on this point. Night after night I would see huge masses of them on the news demonstrating and chanting "Death to the Schwa!!"