I have been in San Francisco at a meeting, and I always love to read the local newspapers.

Today in the SF Chronicle there was a political column saying that the word "disappointed" is the word that "...liberals tend to use whenever members of minority groups think for themselves, as if all those years of supporting expanded opportunity have just blown up in their faces by creating a batch of ungrateful affirmative action babies."

The author goes on to criticize Elizabeth Edwards's (John Edwards's wife) comment where she described how she felt when Michelle Obama (Barack Obama's wife) discouraged people from voting for John Edwards. Elizabeth Edwards apparently said that she was "surprised and disappointed" at what Michelle Obama, an African-American, had said about John Edwards. The column's author went on to say that Elizabeth Edwards was "talking down" to Michelle Obama when she said she was disappointed in her.

If you are disappointed in someone, is that "talking down" to that person? I think not! Unfortunately I can't post the column because I tore it out on the plane and lost both the title and the author. I am disappointed in me!

By the way, Barack Obama is half Caucasian and half African-American. Why is he only considered to be African-American?

I found this article from the San Diego Union-Tribune. Is it the one?

The second sentence of the article (by Ruben Navarrette ) says, "As an African-American with a serious shot at winning the Democratic nomination, Obama immediately ran into condescension and hostility from white liberals who had other ideas about who should be president." That seems to be the whole point of the article. He says disappointed is a word that is "best not used between equals" because it sounds condescending. I don't agree. He seems to think disappointed should be used only by a superior to an inferior, such as a father to his son, or a teacher to her student.

I agree with tinman.

I am frequently disappointed in people's behaviour:

I was disappointed that a person to whom I had sent an email had deleted it without reading it; I was disappointed that a person to whom I had written had not bothered to reply; I am disappointed that a builder to whom I want to give several thousand pounds worth of work hasn't bothered to get in touch in spite of several reminders.

But there's nothing demeaning about my disappointment, although clearly I am being critical when I express it to the person involved.

quote:

Barack Obama is half Caucasian and half African-American. Why is he only considered to be African-American?

Some people don't think he is Black enough. I find the whole discussion of what color anyone is to be demeaning, and I am disappointed in the media all the time (and I AM being condescending about the media because I do feel that I'm better than many of them!)

Honestly, don't you think that some of these things are just to stir up one person against another? When are we (as a nation, as a society, as a human race) going to get past this petty name-calling and get down to what really matters?
<gingerly stepping down from soap-box before boring you all with a meandering diatribe>

I don't think the word "disappointing" is demeaning in and of itself. It is an expression of personal feelings, but it doesn't, for me, anyway, imply that the one who is disappointed is feeling superior to the one who disappointed. Would it have been better for for Ms. Edwards to have said "it's not surprising at all that Ms. Obama would say something to cast aspersions on the reputation of one of her husband's competitors"?

I don't know. I think in a context like this one, saying you are "disappointed in" someone or something is a way of expressing a kind of cold outrage in very muted tones, and I do read it as both condescending and hostile. But also, I think if you say it about another person without their hearing it, you may be genuinely disappointed and not at all condescending; but to say it to their face, or directly of them with their knowledge, you want them to feel the shame and --not your disappointment, but your anger. You are saying it to retaliate.

I'm not sure there were racial overtones involved, though, and that's the part that rankles me--the perception of racism under every rock.

And I'm very disappointed in Elizabeth Edwards for not understanding that in an election campaign it's the candidate's family's job to try to discourage people from voting for the opposition!

WM

quote:

Originally posted by wordmatic:
And I'm very disappointed in Elizabeth Edwards for not understanding that in an election campaign it's the candidate's family's job to try to discourage people from voting for the opposition!
WM

I'm pretty sure she does understand that. I don't think what she was expressing disappointment in Michelle Obama because of her campaigning on behalf of her husband, but rather in what she said. Mrs. Obama had told a young woman who supported Edwards that she shouldn't support him "because he had accepted campaign spending limits that are attached to federal campaign matching money." The argument was that his acceptance of spending limits would hinder any chance of winning. I think Mrs. Edwards was disappointed in this sentiment, not because Mrs. Obama was campaigning for her husband.

I was not there and can't say exactly what happened, but nothing I've read indicates to me there was any condescension at all. In fact, Ruben Navarrette doesn't say that Mrs. Edwards was talking down to Mrs. Obama, but that "it sounds as if she's talking down to Michelle Obama." [emphasis mine] I think if you want to see condescension it, you will.

But as for anger and hostility, no. There is never any anger or hostility in American presidential campaigns! Of course she was angry. But there's nothing wrong with anger (discussed elsewhere). And there may have been some hostility in her voice. I don't know.

Oh, well I didn't know those details (only skimmed what had been written), so that may make a difference in this case. But I was also speaking more generally about my own understanding of what "I'm disappointed in you" implies than of this specific instance, so my opinion isn't really changed. In my personal experience, the intent telling another person you are disappointed in them is to cast shame upon the recipient. It is something we probably have all experienced in earliest childhood and have done ourselves as adults to our own children. When a parent inflicts it on a five year old, a teacher says it to a first grader, the intention is to make the little person feel ashamed so that he/she will behave better in the future. When it is used by an adult to an adult with the intent of changing behavior, the effect of inflicting shame is no different--The "disappointee" is clearly talking down to the "disappointor," and definitely condescending.

If an adult feels let down by the behavior of another person but only expresses the disappointment in abstract, or even just says, "I'm disappointed, that's all"--not directly to the one who did the disappointing or if directly, not accusingly--that is not condescending; that is merely expressing a sense of sadness. But to say "disappointed in you" casts guilt and shame directly upon the offender. That is always an act of condescension, to one degree or another, I believe.

Wordmatic

quote:

Is it the one?

Yes, it was, Tinman. Thank you for finding it.

I would have to disagree with you WM. I have seen kids disappointed in adults, I am disappointed in myself sometimes, and surely there are many African-Americans out there who are disappointed in Caucasians. Maybe, though, I just haven't thought about it enough. On the other hand, by 2030 we won't have any words, I predict, because they all will be offensive!

How is a person to express their feelings if not to openly share them with another? This is off the topic of Obama/Edwards, now, entirely. I'm just curious, WM, what you think. I"m not being challenging or anything, I just am interested. You see, I would try to express my feelings as accurately as possible with someone who hurt me, or disappointed me, so that we could then work on coming to a more pleasant way to interacting in the future. It might require that the other person changes how they do things, but it might equally require that I change myself . . . or usually, I would venture to say, it will require that we both change.

What do you think? Is it condescending to express disappointment in this manner?

If I may chime in, I think Ms Edwards' words (

quote:

I'm surprised and disappointed in Michelle

were ill-chosen. It's a personal, presumptive sort of statement that makes us [women] sound like moms or teachers, or heavens forbid, catty. Step up to the plate, ladies! If you don't like what the other campaigner said, counter it with a strong and scathing retort!!

I have to agree with WM that "I'm disappointed in you" is an expression calculated to shame the addressee, and tends to close down any dialog. What possible response is there other than "I'm so ashamed," or "What can I do to regain your approval"?

But if you say, "I expected you would do X" or "What you said made me angry".. or even "I feel so badly that you did X instead of Y"-- I think there are lots of ways to start a constructive dialog by stating your feelings.

I suspect that "I am disappointed in..." means different things to different people. I have never thought of that phrase like WM or Bethree do. I doubt that it's area of the country or cultural. It's just one of those things.

I posted this thinking that people would consider the media to be uber-sensitive (as usual!) about racism and frankly am surprised that some agree with the media. This has been a learning experience.

To answer Cat's question, I would say something like, "I'm not angry, I'm just disappointed that you did that (or said that)." But to say "I am disappointed in you" is to express a much stronger feeling--that the person has let you waaaay down.

I think it's just a sliver of difference, but in this case, there is some justification for the complaint. But I don't exactly buy into the idea that Elizabeth Edwards was being racist either. I think she meant to put Michelle Obama's remarks in an unfavorable light, but not that she me was basing it on race.

Wordmatic