We have a slightly weird TV comedy show here called "Black Books", set in an eponymous bookshop.

That got me thinking about the origin of the phrase. There are two main uses at least. One is the "little black book" famously kept by philanderers in which they record details of their conquests. The other is to be "in (someone's) black books", meaning that you are not popular with that person.

Does anyone know the origins of these two phrases? Are they connected in any way?

First of all, from what I've seen, you Brits have MANY "slightly weird" TV comedy shows.

Secondly, I've never heard of that second definition for black book . . . and isn't it funny that those two meanings are nearly opposites? I mean, if I was in someone's little black book (don't laugh, I bet I made it into one or two), I'd think it was that I was fairly popular.

Now, I've heard about being on someone's black list . . . and that is a bad place to be.

Weren't Casement's diaries Black Books? He was an Irishman hanged by the Brits for treason because his alleged love for tribesman during colonial service made him impossible to defend.

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if I was in someone's little black book (don't laugh, I bet I made it into one or two), I'd think it was that I was fairly popular.

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CW, you bring up something interesting here: We in the USA DO add "little" when we mean the book of amorous connections. Is that common in the UK?

Interesting that you don't use "in someone's black books" (note plural) over there. It's quite common here. It has a similar meaning to being on someone's "black list", but not quite so formalised.

A wife might be in her husband's black books if she insists on watching Oprah rather than football on TV, but she's hardly likely to go on his black list.

A black list is more likely to refer to companies that you should not trade with, because they have had a history of defaulting on debts or similar.

And yes, Asa, the black book used by lotharios is invariably little over here, too. I thought size didn't matter?

I always thought ( I have no idea why) that the black book of the philanderer was little so as to make it easier to hide it from The Wife.

Isn't Philanderer a city in Pennsylvania? Oops, wrong thread.

Secondly, I've never heard of that second definition for black book

Yes, I agree. Though, we do say, "You're on my list!" Now, does that mean black list? I hadn't thought of that before.

For the second meaning, I'd use the term enemies list (from a term used by and about President Nixon).

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Originally posted by Kalleh:
Yes, I agree. Though, we do say, "You're on my list!" Now, does that mean black list? I hadn't thought of that before.

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Well, this meaning would depend on the context. Sometimes there are other lists people could be on. I heard in a movie or tv show once about a list "of people I'd break my wedding vows for" that included Harrison Ford, Sean Connery, etc. I think my husband's list still includes Catherine Deneuve. . . .

A Google search for the saying about "in (one's) black books" gave a UK page that has been temporarily suspended because of excessive bandwidth consumption, Luckily the Google cache is here

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The earliest Black Books were official documents; the adjective seems to have had no other significance than to indicate the colour of the binding. For example, there were the Black Books of the Exchequer (about 1175), listing royal revenues, and the Black Books of the Admiralty, containing rules compiled in the reign of Edward III. a Black Book of the 1530s, during the reign of Henry VIII, lists abuses in the monasteries, which were subsequently dissolved, and it is from about this time that a black book became specifically associated with censure or punishment, as it still is.
From this sense emerged blacklist, denoting people considered disloyal, untrustworthy or deserving of punishment; bad books as a fairly modern variant of black books; and its converse, good books, meaning favour. These last two may also be related to two old expressions from at least 1509: in one's book(s) (in one's opinion) and out of one's book (mistaken).

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The original site at http://users.tinyonline.co.uk/gswithenbank/ (unavailable at the moment, as I say) looks promising; hopefully the owner will arrange a better hosting deal soon!

Quote "...First of all, from what I've seen, you Brits have MANY "slightly weird" TV comedy shows..."

Having just spent a fortnight in a hotel in Florida which had nothing but US programmes, I can say only that, if it's a choice between our slightly weird and America's mainstream TV, I'll go for weirdness!

I love the USA and most of the American's I've met, and I really don't think you deserve the TV (or come to that, the newspapers) that are inflicted upon you.

Had it not been for the ready availability of English newspapers I would have been forced to conclude that just about the only things happening outside the USA were happening in Iraq or were to do with our Royal Family

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Originally posted by Richard English:

I love the USA and most of the American's I've met,

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Richard, your time away from the board has done you no good at all !

Whoops! Actually it's not quite what it seems. I orginally wrote something that used an abbreviation and then changed my mind - but not the abbreviation!

I shall leave the error there as a reminder of the errors of my way's (sic).

To be completely honest, I seldom watch television for the very same reason you avoided it while here. That's why I post on the board so often!

BTW - good to have you back, RE.

The site I mentioned on 26 November, saying that it "looks promising", has come vack online (for the moment at least) and has lived up to my expectations. Lots of diversions, "Random wanderings along the convoluted byways of the English language" at http://users.tinyonline.co.uk/gswithenbank/divert.htm

Well, unfortunately, arnie, it is no longer vack on.

I recently read where someone was talking about her "little blue book." She meant her passport! Of course that could only be used in countries with blue passports.

Richard, welcome back! Nice to see that you're human, too (along with arnie).

It's still vack for me.

Now it's there! Honestly, when I tried it yesterday it said something about updating the site.

Thanks, arnie! We should put that link in Links for Linguaphiles. I went to epilaughs and had fun! Mangled English wasn't bad, either. I loved the Calamitous Claims (e.g. "To avoid hitting the bumper of the car in front, I struck the pedestrian.") Lost in Translation and Scientific Silliness were funny, too. Great site, arnie!

Good site, arnie! I was surprised to see, in the animal adjectives section, that crows and magpies share "corvine." They're related, but not the same, so what gives? And "murine" for mouse? I've been putting mouse droppings in my eyes?

And "murine" for mouse?

That's 'cause the oblique forms of Latin mus 'mouse' is muris 'of the mouse', etc. Derived adjectival form is murinus 'of or concerning mice'.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jheem,

Crows and magpies are both part of the crow family, Latin corvus.

It's amusing looking at that site how many of the threads here are also covered there. In particular there's quite a good collection of Tom Swifties

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Originally posted by jheem:
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That's cause the oblique forms of Latin _mus_ 'mouse' is _muris_ 'of the mouse', etc. Derived adjectival form is _murinus_ 'of or concerning mice'.

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So a "mus-keteer" really IS a mouse! Disney was right!

M-I-C

see ya real soon!

K-E-Y

why? because we like you!

M-O-U-S-E

Gee, Annette... that was fun!

hehehehe

{big perky smile} You're welcome!

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Originally posted by Caterwauller:
M-I-C

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T-U-R

A-T-I-O-N.

Old coot's desire once the prostate problems kick in.