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The American Medical Association is apparently sponsoring legislation where only physicians can be called "doctor" in health care settings. Now, we have many nurses with doctoral degrees (present company included!), as well as dentists, pharmacists (doctorally degreed now), physical therapists (doctorally degreed now), chiropractors, psychologists, and of course university professors. So...only medical doctors can be called "doctor?" This raises several questions. First, why can't physicians be satisfied with being called "physicians?" Secondly, with all these doctorally degreed professionals (who just love to be called "doctor"), why is it that our lawyers (educated with a doctorate in juris prudence) don't insist on being called "doctor?" They have as much right as anyone else. The simple conclusion here is that lawyers are, in fact, the least arrogant of all the professionals in the U.S. BTW, what are all these professionals called in England? | ||
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I can't give a definite answer about practice in UK health care, but, in general, only medical practitioners are addressed as "Doctor". Nurses, dentists, pharmacists, and the like do not usually have doctoral degrees. I suppose in some teaching hospitals some may have doctorates, but I don't know how they are usually addressed. One convention is that surgeons, despite being better-qualified than "plain" physicians, are addressed as "Mr/Mrs/Ms". This goes back to the days when surgeons doubled up as barbers, and had no real medical training. Surgeons, in fact, often get quite irate if they are addressed as "Doctor". Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. | |||
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There's even a subtle difference about this in the U.S. I work at a small liberal arts college, where, for years, professors were addressed as "Dr." if they held a doctorate and "Mr., Miss or Ms." if the highest degree were a Master's. Recently we began to be encouraged to refer to all faculty with Ph.D.s as "Professor Lastname," because that is how doctoral faculty are addressed at all the better schools (not that we have a class system.)  I know, too, from a relative who has served on university faculties in Australia and New Zealand, that faculty with doctorates are referred to as "Professor Jones" in academic contexts, and I believe it is the same in the UK. But I think they are also called "Mr. Jones" in social contexts. In both US and UK versions, it's a kind of reverse snobbery, that considers it crass wear one's doctorate openly. So, Professor Kalleh, the physicians are the crassest of the bunch, apparently, and maybe lawyers are least arrogant, but they're laughing all the way to the bank. | |||
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At UK colleges, professors are usually heads of department/faculty. They are addressed as "Professor", with staff who have doctorates usually addressed as "Doctor". Those with other post-graduate qualifications are called "Mr/Mrs/Ms". Socially, as wordmatic says, they don't usually use their title, unlike Ross in Friends!  Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. | |||
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In America, we tend to have(at least in my experience), Professor, Associate(or Assistant) Professor, and then various other levels, including "lecturer" at my school. As I understand it, anyone titled Professor is a tenured PhD, and Associate Professor has a PhD, but not tenure. The other levels are faculty without doctorates. As a student, it was somewhat difficult to know what to call a professor, because the lecturers don't want to bring up the fact they aren't PhDs, and the professors don't think they need to. Typically, if I didn't know what to address them as, I wouldn't use their name in conversation, which is easy if you don't go to office hours. As for full professors, doctor or professor seemed fine for most. | |||
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I have been in academia for 20 years at a couple of universities (public and private) and with tenure. I've also attended a number of nursing education conferences across the country. Whereever I've been, university professors are called "doctor" when they have a PhD and Ms/Mr. when they don't. I haven't ever been called Professor, nor have I ever called anyone Professor nor heard others being called Professor. Therefore, your comment wordmatic really confuses me. I just don't agree that doctoral faculty are addressed as "professor" at all the better schools. From personal experience, I know that's not true, for example, at UC Berkeley, Yale, and the University of Chicago, all considered "better" universities. Sean makes a good point. If you call an Assistant (many, in fact, do have their PhDs; they are the ones who are working toward tenure) Professor or an Associate Professor (yes, they can be tenured), "Professor," it isn't accurate, and the Full Professors will object! Many undergraduate students don't know (or care) whether their professors are Associate Professors or Full Professors anyway. Therefore, "Dr." is most often used, at least in my experience. | |||
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Perhaps it is time for a new word to be coined so that we can distinguish physicians from those other folks who have earned doctorate degrees. What other things can we call physicians? ******* "Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions. ~Dalai Lama | |||
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I went to a small liberal arts college across the state from you. I hope you refer to "better" colleges with some sarcasm, because I will defend the smaller colleges with great vehemence! All of my classes were taught and graded by the actual professors. This is contrary to what students get at The Ohio State University where many of their classes are taught by TAs. I much prefer the kind consideration and personal dedication to education and true learning I experienced to the mass-produced cattle-training I see going on at some of those "better" institutions. ******* "Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions. ~Dalai Lama | |||
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Well, I wouldn't call Ohio State one of the "better" schools. It is a very large state school, and while it has some elite programs, in general it is not up to the level of schools like Harvard and Stanford. | |||
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Yes, I agree with you, Sean. My understanding, too, is that even of the Big 10 schools it is the least selective, which seems to be one of the factors that defines "better" colleges (a factor which you may or may not agree with).
I do agree with you on this, CW. Many of the "better" colleges/universities are smaller...Middlebury comes to mind, and I know there are many more. Of course "smaller" is relative, but many, many of the colleges or universities that I consider top-rate are smaller. CW, I think you answered your own question. Why can't physicians be called that..."physicians?" Why do we even need "doctor?" Why can't nurses be called "nurses," "professors" be called "professors," "dentists" be called "dentists," chiropractors be called "chiropractors," and so on? I think attorneys have had it right all along, though I've never understood the distinction between "lawyer" and "attorney" (even though we've discussed it here). | |||
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A doctor friend of mine gets called to hospital bedsides when all the surgeons' and physicians' efforts have been in vain. He is a Doctor of Divinity. | |||
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Just today I was writing an abstract for the International Council of Nurses, and they asked if you were a "dr, Prof, Mr, Miss, or Mrs". I believe I was a little too know-it-all with my comment above on "Professor" not being used. Sorry. | |||
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In the UK as in the USA confusion abounds. It has worsened since dentists and others who are not medical doctors and are without a doctorate degree (PhD, or MD which here is a higher postgraduate not basic qualifying degree MB) now often call themselves doctor. Surgeons by tradition are called Mr., dating from the time when they were part of the barber-surgeons guild. Originally the barber was also a regular practitioner in surgery and dentistry. The Company of Barber-surgeons was incorporated by Edward IV. in 1461; under Henry VIII. the title was altered to Company of Barbers and Surgeons, and barbers were restricted to the practice of dentistry. Barbers and surgeons were separated by the formation of the Royal College of Surgeons of England in 1745. Surgeons were also separated from, and held to be vastly inferior to the older profession of physicians (Doctor of Physick.), who were ‘scholars and gentlemen’. A Royal Charter incorporated the Royal College of Physicians in 1518 under their first President, Thomas Linacre. We can see how they were regarded (OED) in 1612 when Woodall observed: “The more learned sort are justly stiled by the title of Physicians, and the more experienced sort are called Chirurgions or Surgeons.” In my view, the title of Professor should be, and in the UK is confined to those who have been appointed by their University to a Chair syn. Professorship in their particular discipline. In Medicine, unfortunately, such Chairs are now 'three a penny', and no longer carry the distinction of former times. | |||
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| <Asa Lovejoy> |
Fascinating stuff, Pearce! As for those of us in the USA, perhaps we should write to "Dr. Laura" for clarification! http://www.drlaura.com/main/ Humble she ain't!!! | ||
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When I used to drive my kids to college, I used to crave talk radio every so often, rather than music. Sometimes I'd run into Dr. Laura, and she'd just drive me up the wall! That's how I found Car Talk though, which I think is hilarious.  Yes, quite interesting, Pearce. It is confusing here in the U.S., too. I can't wait to see what happens to the AMA's lawsuit.  There will be a lot of angry professionals, I can tell you that. | |||
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Best of luck to them all. It's really unimportant apart from to those so insecure or underqualified who wish to emphasise or invent such titles. The only danger is to those seeking advice who are often misled by ambiguous or bogus titles and degrees. In England, for example, the majority of people don't know that psychiatrists are medically trained and psychologists not. | |||
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We are a lot more stupid than that!! You can now get homeopathic animal remedies; chiropractors still find work; and measles, mups & rubella are on the increase. | |||
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I believe that anyone should be able to call themselves a doctor. Your average literate person (with a few good books on the human body) is just as capable of diagnosing common ailments as an average ‘doctor’. Diagnoses that are beyond just such a person would be just as likely above the average ‘doctor’. Should this happen do as they would do and refer yourself to a specialist. As you can tell I have no love for the AMA or medical schooling. The practice of medicine should be a vocational art and there should be as many ‘doctors’ as retail sales people. As it is now the AMA is just protecting an exclusive club of overpaid nitwits. BTW- If anyone needs help with medical vocabulary which comes in handy when you discover you have strep throat on Friday afternoon and need to write a prescription (Thank you Microsoft Word) to get antibiotics so you do not suffer all weekend or have to waste recourses by going to and emergency room. I have never let my schooling get in the way of my education. --Mark Twain-- Dr. Bongo | |||
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Well, Dr. Bongo, first I must welcome you to our fine site! I have also sent you a welcome PM, but we love new people here. Please stay with us!Now...to respond to you. With all due respect , I just can't agree with you about the average Joe diagnosing him/herself. Good luck with that! Having studied nursing for a number of years, the medical field is just too complex now. I have the utmost respect for my medical colleagues, as do most nurses. In most cases, they have studied and worked very hard until well into their 30s without being paid much. They are amazingly hard-working and dedicated to the health and well-being of their patients. As in any profession or occupation, there are exceptions of course. But not many. (BTW, I feel that way about most lawyers, too.)Yes, you can put the symptoms into Google and come out with some diagnosis, but I wonder what the reliability is. I have seen countless people self-diagnose and make things far worse. Probably the worst I have seen is inflammatory carcinoma of the breast (quite invasive and needs treatment immediately) where the patient treated herself with antibiotics. Sure, it looks like a mastitis, but it isn't. A physician (or nurse practitioner) would know to get it biopsied immediately. Perhaps you were teasing, though. I haven't gotten to know you yet.
Hmmm...that would be I, I suppose. I just feel that I have worked hard for my doctorate degree, and as long as it is legal to do so, I will use it. | |||
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Hey! That's the sig line I use in my posts to the Wordcraft Jr site! Welcome (Dr) Bongo! Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. | |||
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Keeping in faith with this topic, there is absolutely no chance you will catch me addressing you as "Dr." in one of my posts, unless for some reason another user with the handle of "Bongo" starts posting. The internet is too informal a place for titles to be necessary. Still, welcome aboard. | |||
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| <Asa Lovejoy> |
We have a local orgasmic foods grocery store in Portland that uses a slogan filched from another store that went out of business. They call themselves "The friendliest store in town." At the price of "natural" foods, they've got reason to be friendly!!! The Right - and Left - Reverend Asa | ||
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Is it just food they sell? Richard English | |||
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In 1979 as a youth of 49, I took a notion to add a Master's degree to my two Bachelor's degrees (Bachelor of Science and Bachelor of Foreign Trade), so I stumbled across the street to Colorado State University and got myself admitted to a three-year program with that goal in mind. During the first half of the three-year program I worked in a bakery at night and slept in my classes in the daytime. I spent the next 18 months teaching in the Intensive English Program with a crew of younger colleagues. The IEP was expensive for its students, and we Graduate Teaching Assistants were paid slave wages. When my program ended I was awarded the Master of Arts (TOEFL) and now I'm wondering, if hard work and longevity are the criteria, should I be addressed as "Master" ??? ~~~ jerry | |||
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| <Asa Lovejoy> |
That's ORGANIC.  Well, I guess if your organ's involved...Reverend Asa the sometimes unrighteous | ||
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Master Thomas, Dr. Bongo (welcome!), Dr. Kalleh, et al, Sorry to have slopped a few zingers onto the page above and then trotted off to the Adirondacks for a much needed vacation without pausing to look back at the minor turmoil I'd possibly contributed to. Yes, (Dr.? Prof.? Ms.?) Caterwauller, I did make that remark about the better schools with some sarcasm, as I believe it is much less confusing to address everybody with a Ph.D. as "Doctor," and probably many newly minted Ph.D.s are a bit disappointed if they are not addressed as such. At the institution where I work, as others have said, no one is hired at the rank of Asst. Prof. without a Ph.D. If they are an "ABD" (about to be doctorate), they are hired as instructors until the Ph.D. is completed, and then they are promoted to assistant professor. Associate Professors are Ph.D.s with tenure; full professors are tenured professors who have distinguished themselves in their teaching and research. Some faculty remain associate professors for the balance of their careers; others make full professor on a fast track. When I was in undergraduate school, if the professor was late for class, we used to have to wait 5 minutes for an assistant prof., 10 minutes for an associate prof. and 15 minutes for a full prof. We called all of them "Dr." or "Mr.," "Miss" or "Mrs." This was before "Ms." And yes, as a graduate of a large city university, I much prefer the quality of teaching that takes place at the small liberal arts college where I work, so I'm with you 100% on that one, Caterwauller. Interesting to note that the, um, upper crust line we were given about referring to faculty as "professor" instead of "doctor" may stem from insecurity of those aspiring to be in a better place, rather than the assurance that comes from actually being in one! Wordmatic | |||
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While some places do use "Professor" (as I indicated above after having said I'd never heard of it), I do know that faculty at many "better" (and I won't define "better") universities and colleges use the term "doctor" and not "professor." I don't have the evidence on this, but my sense is that those titles (doctor and professor) are used similarly in "better" and "not-so-good" colleges and universities. I think small liberal arts colleges can be excellent. However, I have seen high quality teaching taking place at larger universities too. While at some of them all the classes are very large and taught only by TAs, that is definitely not the case in all larger universities and colleges. My university had about 13,000 or so students (not sure exactly), and it was mandated that we were to have small classes and the PhD faculty taught those classes (sometimes with help by TAs). There was a stress on teaching at that university. In our clinical courses we had a 1-10 faculty/student ratio. Faculty socialized with students at events, and we held skits and other fun programs. So, kids should look around. There are wonderful big universities, too. | |||
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It's pretty much up to the institution and its constituent departments to determine the qualifications of their faculty and how to bypass them if necessary. I've known at least two fulltime, tenured full professors with just masters degrees: one at Stanford and the other at Sonoma State University (he is now emeritus). They were hired for their expertese, read fame, in their fields and their publications. They were both fine lecturers and instructors. What should probably be mentioned here is the distinction between adjunct and tenured. The former is on a semester by semester contract basis and without benefits. Most of the grunt classes get taught by the adjunct faculty and graduate students. I have taught as both an adjunct lecturer, the rung just above grad student, and adjunct professor, with a masters degree. My pay did not increase but more students addressed me as either doctor (their mistake) or professor. I was never called lecturer. —Ceci n'est pas un seing. | |||
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| <Asa Lovejoy> |
I'm sure you're familiar with Eric Hoffer, who taught at Berkely, but didn't even have a high school diploma. Quite a feat! Perhaps this lends some credence to "Dr." Bongo's assertion, but one finds someone like Hoffer very seldom; one finds crackpots on most street corners, talk radio stations, internet boards, etc. Reverend Asa Lovejoy, your local psycho-ceramic   This message has been edited. Last edited by: <Asa Lovejoy>, | ||
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Was this really a rule? I've heard this before, but never as an official rule, more of something students have come up with over the years. We even had amendments to it, if the class was 2 hours, the times doubled, 3 hours and they tripled. | |||
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One of my idols in nursing was the Dean of Yale University's School of Nursing. She was known and admired throughout the world for her pioneer work in nursing theory; every nursing graduate student read her work. She had a masters degree, but no doctorate.
I had heard about that rule, too, but I hadn't ever seen it in effect. Our students used to wait awhile and then go out to the reception desk to find out where their professor was! Someone would come in and get things going until we could find out where the professor was. I think nursing students were more anal, though, than other students. | |||
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Was this really a rule? A graduate student, the TA (i.e., teaching assistant) for the class, told me this when the professor was late. Another graduate student told me of a professor who was absent from several lectures. His TA brought in a tape recorder, set it up, and started it. He then left, but returned at the end of the class. On the third third such occasion, each of the students pulled tape recorders from their backpacks, put them in record mode, and everybody left to return at the end of the class. (I've since heard it once more, so it's most likely an urban legend.) —Ceci n'est pas un seing. | |||
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There's something similar about recorders at Snopes, but in reverse - they say it is "indeterminate". They show as false the UL about set waiting times. Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. | |||
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As for the wait rule, at the university I attended, it wasn't written down anywhere. It was more like student folk knowledge, passed along from person to person (with the frat boys leading the way.) It may not have been true, but we all believed it and acted upon it. I would say a professor's failing to show up occurred possibly once or twice a term with some professors; never with others. We would watch our watches and walk out promptly when the allotted time was up! WM | |||
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Well, I have alluded to how anal nursing programs are, so I will give you a real life example. One of our faculty members had an exam the day after 9/11/01. She insisted all students must take that exam, or there'd be points taken off. The students wildly objected. One of her students was also in a class I taught, and her brother had worked in one of the towers; of course they couldn't find him. She wasn't about to take an exam the next day! The students fought, it went to faculty, and guess who won? The faculty member. I couldn't believe it! | |||
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| <Asa Lovejoy> |
While that seems quite hard-hearted, you nurses DO have to contend with some atrocious circumstances, so perhaps the faculty member felt it was training of a sort. | ||
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If I address a hospital janitor with "Good morning, Doctor," will I be subject to arrest and incarceration ? Does anyone know whether I will have committed a misdemeanor or a felony, and what the punishment will be for this crime (if the legislation is passed) ? Just curious. | |||
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Reviving a thread... The same controversy still exists, 5 years later. Frankly, I don't understand it. "Doctor" is a broader term (and the OED supports me on that), while "nurse," "physician," "physical therapist," etc., are the specific titles. I think it's all about turf. | |||
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| <Proofreader> |
My brother, who sold houses, became a member of a trade organization and thus a "Realtor", with a capital 'R', which he insisted be used if any mention was made in papers referring to him. | ||
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It seems so odd how wed the physicians are to the word "doctor." If, for example, you are on a plane, and they call for a "doctor," believe me many nurses speak up and in many cases they are the more appropriate responder than the radiologist or pathologist might be. Yet, if it's a suspected heart attack, of course I'd rather have a cardiologist or an internist respond than a nurse. I think nurses are pretty realistic about their limitations. | |||
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Hello, I'm new to the site. If you meet a janitor in a hospital setting you can always refer to them as DJ i.e. Doctor of Janitorial Sciences | |||
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| <Proofreader> |
I always thought they were Custodial Engineers. | ||
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Welcome, vazheh! We just love new posters! The American Medical Association would love it to be a felony, I am sure! | |||
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Thank you for your kind words. I wonder how long my poster-boy status will last, Perhaps I'm not a poster but a poseur? The AMA WILL consider it a felony and it's an infamy. "Infamy, Infamy, they all have it in for me" in the words of the sadly missed Frank Muir. | |||
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I confess to not hearing of Frank Muir before, though I just looked him up. I am, however, familiar with John Muir , and Muir Woods, located in California. | |||
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Now that attribution is an obscure bit of triva. Like most people I would have attributed it either to Kenneth Williams (who said it in Carry On Cleo) or to Talbot Rothwell who wrote the film. Until I just went to the trouble of looking it up I hadn't realised that it was a Muir and Norden gag borrowed for the film. You learn something new every day. Welcome to the board. "No man but a blockhead ever wrote except for money." Samuel Johnson. | |||
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I hadn't realised that it was a Muir and Norden gag borrowed for the film. You learn something new every day. Welcome to the board.[/QUOTE] Thank you very much for the welcome. Frank Muir and Dennis Norden are surely the Patron Saints of Elegant Puns in modern times. There would be an statute of them somewhere where they not so inordinately tall. I can see that this site is even more subject to "message drift" than some others, I'll have to discipline myself and stick to the subject, if only I could remember it. | |||
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We're like a river, subject to random eddies and currents but always ending up in the right ocean. "No man but a blockhead ever wrote except for money." Samuel Johnson. | |||
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