When I came across the word 'silo' in reading, it struck me, "This does not look like an English word." Doesn't the -o ending look strange, especially on a very short word? There just aren't many famimliar, everyday words that end in -o, particularly short ones. The few we do have are typically foreign (dodo), or have a slangy feel, especially as croppings of longer words (bozo, hobo, mojo; ammo, afro, homo, typo).
So of course, I checked it out. OED traces it to Spanish silo; fine so far. But then OED claims that the Spanish word is from Latin sirum, a form of the word sirus, from Greek σιρος.
This strikes me as very odd. It doesn't seem natural to me that the sirum would change to silo_, changing two consonents in a single syllable.
Onelook mentions this but gives an alternate explanation: that Spanish silo is akin to Basque zilo, zulo "dugout, cave or shelter for keeping grain." (Basque is of course native to a region of Spain.) The idea would be that the Spanish and Basque words each trace from a common root that preceded the Latin occupation of Spain.
The Basque idea sounds much more reasonable to me. What do you think?
The change from Latin um to Spanish o is regular. aiui, Spanish nouns are derived from the ablative of the Latin noun. The ablative of sirus would be siro. As in: Latin amicus, ablative amico - Spanish amigo Latin oratio, ablative oratiōne - Spanish oración
The switch of liquids is not that uncommon: Spanish milagro from Latin miraculum, Portuguese marmelada from Latin melimēlum.This message has been edited. Last edited by: goofy,
This strikes me as very odd. It doesn't seem natural to me that the sirum would change to silo_, changing two consonents in a single syllable.
Seems like a normal development to me. Final -m in Classical Latin was probably just nasalization on the previous vowel. As goofy says, the interchange between l and r in Romance is not all that exceptional: e.g., Latin peregrinus 'foreign, alien' > Late Latin pelegrinus 'pilgrim': cf. Old French peligrin, French pèlerin, Italian pellegrino, Spanish peregrino, and English pilgrim and peregrine.
The Basque idea sounds much more reasonable to me. What do you think?
Basque is a language isolate, meaning it's the only member of its language family. Another examples of a language isolate is Sumerian. The late Professor Larry Trask was a Basque specialist. His (archived) Basque FAQ is still worth reading.This message has been edited. Last edited by: zmježd,
Well, this isn't about the etymology, but it's a thought about the meaning of silo. I grew up on a farm where we had a silo, and I am very much aware of what it is...a tower that contains silage. Yet, the Greek word from which the word evolved was siros, apparently meaning "a pit to keep corn in," at least that's what etymology.com says. I wonder how the word evolved from meaning a pit, dugout, cave or shelter to meaning a high tower. Then I also wonder how the meaning of of "silos" in the workplace came to mean isolated groups of people. While a silo only holds silage, that seems to have loosely evolved.
I grew up on a farm where we had a silo, and I am very much aware of what it is...a tower that contains silage.
I, too, grew up on a farm, but that was in the '60s and '70s, and farming is a lot older, being as my uncle used to say the second oldest profession. Silos take many shapes: e.g., the classic (American mid-western) tower of concrete, the even larger grain elevators, the more modern long plastic tube filled with silage, and the older, according to the OED1, early 19th century "pit or underground chamber used for the storage of grains, roots, etc." There were even barn silos according to this 1884 book Silos For Preserving British Fodder Crops Stored in a Green State: Notes on the Ensilage of Grasses, Clovers, Vetches, Etc. The meanings of words change. It seems to me that in a days when building a stone tower was mainly for defense, a pit or underground chamber would suffice for fodder or silage.
It occurs to me that the Basque zilo could've been borrowed from Spanish silo or Latin sirum.
It occurs to me that the Basque zilo could've been borrowed from Spanish silo
Or vice versa?
As you note, Basque is a language isolate, but so what? That doesn't preclude borrowings. After all, Japanese is also an isolate, but there are plenty of borrowings between Japanese and English (both ways).
Isolates tend to entice cranks and kooks to folk etymologizing. Yes, Spanish could've borrowed it from Basque, or Basque from Latin, the point is if you want to prove it one way or another you'll have to track down the uses of zilo in Basque, the uses of Spanish silo, Latin sirum, and Greek siros, showing how they evolved in meaning and usage, and construct a plausible history of your proposed etymology. That's all I meant.
Given your various descriptions of silos, z, do you think it's logical that the meaning of "isolation," such as "silos" in the workplace, developed from the word "silo?" I still find it odd, though I know there are a lot of odd etymologies and word evolutions out there.
Neither. He cited the Etymology Online site for the Basque zilo origin of Spanish and English silo. I was suggesting that they were either kooks or cranks or both. (Most reputable lexicographer I know warn to take the EO etymologies with a few grains of salt.) Shufitz is a fine fellow and a great OED antedater, but I think even he'll admit he's no etymologist.
do you think it's logical that the meaning of "isolation," such as "silos" in the workplace, developed from the word "silo?"
I think it came from the urtypical Mid-Western silo of our farm experience, K. Or would you suggesting a Basque origin for the office isolate meaning, too? The idea of being in a missle silo seems to me a apt term for an isolating feeling.
I didn't see any mention of Etymology Online in his post. He did mention OneLook in his original post. Perhaps that's what you're referring to.
of the OneLook responses for 'silo', the Online Etymology Dictionary is the one which includes the zilo ref. -- the confusion (if there really is any) was caused by the non-specific reference.
I didn't see any mention of Etymology Online in his post. He did mention OneLook in his original post. Perhaps that's what you're referring to.
OneLook is not an etymological or any other kind of dictionary. It is a online dictionary aggregation service. You enter a word, and it sends queries out to all the online dictionaries it knows about (or have been registered with it). I figured Shu was referring to Etymology Onlines's entry for silo. (I see, during the editing of this entry, that tsuwm has given basically the same answer, but I'll let mine stand.)
I am sorry if any of my posts are confusing or ambiguous, as I do try to make them clear, concise, and informative, but I stand by my conviction that writing etymologies is not a easily acquired skill. In most dictionary entries, the etymology is at best a very condensed recitation of the common opinion of many etymologists. Specialist etymological dictionaries, delve a little deeper and usually have pointers to academic articles where in-depth studies and argumentation for proposed etymologies are made. (I should note here that I'm really not an etymologist either, though I have study the field, though I work in another.)
The idea of being in a missle silo seems to me a apt term for an isolating feeling.