Reuters: "Pinochet was under house arrest at the time of his recent heart attack, accused in the deaths of two bodyguards of former Chilean President Salvador Allende, who he ousted in a coup."

I'd admit that in casual speech, one is no longer required to observe the who/whom distinction. But have we abrogated that requirment in formal writing as well?

But have we abrogated that requirment in formal writing as well?

I still observe the distinction in formal written English, but having said that, whom is pretty much going the way of the dodo. Most folks cannot even be bothered with the distinction between I and me when the pronoun follows and and. To my ear (1) "me and Johnny went up town" sounds better than (2) "there is no difference between you and I". The first is honest and authentic speech that follows the speaker's dialectal grammar, but the second is some kind of Frankenstein's monster of ill-digested school-house grammar.

[Corrected typo.]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: zmježd,

If this Language Log post can be believed, "between you and I" goes back at least 150 years, according to the MWDEU.

Which doesn't necessariy mean it's not ill-digested school-house grammar, but it is older than many people think.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: goofy,

Jesse Sheidlower concludes that between you and I is not considered acceptable. After noting the various arguments, he states:

Despite these various arguments, it remains true that between you and I is almost always considered wrong. ... it is unlikely the phrase could be regarded as "standard." ... in modern use it is very, very rare in print of any sort, and comparatively rare in formal speech.

But what about who/whom?

The American Heritage Dictionary says the distinction between who and whom "remains a hallmark of formal style."

I had read that paragraph about Pinochet earlier and did not even see the error until it was pointed out here, but do agree that it is an error. In spoken usage, it's unusual nowadays to hear "whom" being used correctly. However, "I and Johnny went uptown" sounds completely awkward to me, even though technically correct, but "Johnny and I went uptown" sounds just right. It's also correct usage, as is, "There is no difference between you and me."

Wordmatic

If the Language Log can be believed, gooofy? Coming from you, that must be irony.

Thank heavens for Jesse, whom I love (not in the Bibilical sense!) otherwise I might have to give in on who and whom, too.

Furthermore, you can't say "Whom do you like?", you have to "Whom do ye like". This dumbing down of English is unacceptable.

Edit: For example:

quote:

Never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

This obeys the correct rules of English. It is a travesty that people no longer know how to correctly use "thee".

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
If the Language Log can be believed, gooofy? Coming from you, that must be irony.

There's a lot of that going around. Speaking of Language Log, here's a funny commentary on the coming death of "whom:"

quote:

It's a desperately insecure clutching after a form that people no longer know where to use or how to control. Whom is like some strange object — a Krummhorn, a unicycle, a wax cylinder recorder — found in grandpa's attic: people don't want to throw it out, but neither do they know what to do with it.