Bierma writes that it has been "years" since he has pronounced the "T" in words like "center," "wanted," "twenty," and "international." He says doing so sounds snobby, British, or both, and that linguists say it's natural for the "T" to blend in with the "N" sound because the sounds are produced so similarly.

Really? I pronounce those "Ts." Do you see the pronuncation of "Ts" disappearing when they are preceded by an "N"?

Do you see the pronunciation of "Ts" disappearing when they are preceded by an "N"?

Yes. I don't pronounce them anymore in casual speech. On the other hand, I have noticed that many people these days pronounce the t in often.

I don't hear it much over here unless the speaker is American or is trying for a "mid-Atlantic" accent.

The usage note referenced by zmj says:

quote:

With the rise of public education and literacy and, consequently, people's awareness of spelling in the 19th century, sounds that had become silent sometimes were restored, as is the case with the t in often, which is now frequently pronounced. In other similar words, such as soften and listen, the t generally remains silent.

Perhaps this is a sign of a decline of the speakers' literacy?

Just curious-- are those of you who spoke to this point from England, or learned ESL with the British accent?

I am not native to NJ (said she proudly); I am from upstate-NY-- an equally regional, but totally different accent. I find my 3 boys (all raised in NJ) almost incomprehensible at times. As you may have heard from comedians, the NJ accent is famous for dropping 'n's, as well as for running the remaining consonants together in a sludge.

Bethree:

Kalleh lives in Chicago, although I believe she hails from Wisconsin. Zmj lives in R'lyeh, under the Pacific, although I think he works in California. He has said whereabouts he was born, but I've forgotten, I'm afraid. I know it was on a farm ...

I'm from England.

I was born in the San Francisco Bay Area, California, as were my parents. The hospital I was born in became shortly thereafter an old age home and is currently a winery. I grew up on a farm, or, as we say around these parts, a ranch. I work in Silicon Valley in a computer company (software and hardware) where I get to hear all kinds of lovely accents. I've heard the t in often from both US and UK speakers. It is more common than the between you and I construction, but not quite as common as pronouncing err as air. Language changes.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
Bierma writes that it has been "years" since he has pronounced the "T" in words like "center," "wanted," "twenty," and "international."

My understanding is that in North American English it's common to use a nasal tap in words like these. Very much like the sound in "butter", "betting," "waiting" etc.

nasal tap

Now that I think of it, it is a nasal tap. (Ain't phonology wunnaful?) You can read more about alveolar flapping in Wikipedia. The nasal tap is mentioned in the penultimate paragraph.

quote:

words like "center," "wanted," "twenty," and "international."

Those all seem like American pronunciations to me, as I said.

quote:

butter", "betting," "waiting"

These all seem like cockney or Estuary English.

What an interesting url on alveolar flapping, zmj, thanks. I would have said I don't "flap/tap," but I see in fact I do-- my distinction between 'riding' and 'writing' is made by the pronunciation and length of the preceding vowel.

I meant of course that New Jerseyans drop the 't's: wamted = wannid, center=cenner, etc. I assume that's what Bierma meant too. Not even a flap-tap.

I haven't heard anyone say 'between you and I' thank the lord. And I don't hear ofTen offen either .

I have a theory about err=air. It's one of those words that rarely was spoken aloud in American English. I'm going to bet it was a politician in the apologetic '70's who brought it into the spoken language-- mispronouncing it, of course, so as to sound like 'one of the folks.'

quote:

Originally posted by arnie:
butter", "betting," "waiting"
These all seem like cockney or Estuary English.

In cockney English, the "t" is pronounced as a glottal stop. In North America, it's an alveolar tap.

quote:

twenty

It is pretty hard to pronounce this word without the "T". It would sound something like "wenny".

I tried to find a link to Bierma's article, but couldn't. However, I get the column by email, so I will cut and paste it here. The writer asked about dropping the "t" in "dentist" and "interesting," too, which I just can't imagine..."denist?"

Here is that section of Bierma's column:

Q. What is happening to the English spoken language? Have you noticed the disappearance of the "T" when it is preceded by an "N"? For example: "She is going to the denist" (dentist) or "It was very inneresting" (interesting), or "He attended an innernational (international) meeting."

-- Elise Glassenberg, Chicago

A.It's been years since I pronounced the "T" in words such as "center," "wanted," "twenty," "international." To me, the clear articulation of the "T" in these words sounds snobby, British or both.

Linguists say it's natural for the "T" to blend in with the "N" sound, because these sounds are produced so similarly.

"The 'T' and the 'N' are made with the mouth in the absolutely identical position (tongue tip touching at the ridge behind the top teeth)," Laura Dickey, linguist at Northwestern University, explained to me by e-mail. "The only difference between them is [that] the 'N' lets air flow through the nose and the 'T' doesn't."

Without special effort to supply extra breath to the 'T,' it naturally gives way to the 'N.'

"What happens is that the part with no nasal airflow (the 'T') just gets shorter and shorter until it disappears," Dickey says. "So, the 'T' is gone and only the 'N' remains."

Two of your examples, though, actually strike me as exceptions. I tend to pronounce "interesting" as "intra-sting," skipping the second "E" rather than the first "T." And I do hit the "T" more firmly in "dentist" than in other words, at least when "dentist" ends the sentence.

Maybe the word "dentist" reminds me to use my teeth!

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
Maybe the word "dentist" reminds me to use my teeth!

Except that we don't use the teeth to pronounce the /t/!

quote:

The 'T' and the 'N' are made with the mouth in the absolutely identical position (tongue tip touching at the ridge behind the top teeth)," Laura Dickey, linguist at Northwestern University, explained to me by e-mail.

Yes. As Laura Dickey says, it touches that ridge behind the top teeth. Actually that also happens when I say D, L and a little with G and J. It's something that I just haven't thought about before.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,

a little with G and J

I think you mean g as in gist and j as in joke. The g in get or ghost has no closure at the alveolar ridge. The sound of ch as in child also has a similar place of articulation (actually a little behind where the t or d is usually made) for the stop in the first half of the affricate: /ʧ/ (voiceless postaleveolar affricate) and /ʤ/ (voiceless postaleveolar affricate). These sounds are a combination of t and sh and d and zh.

Actually, I suspect most of us wouldn't even notice if someone said, "I went to the dennist yesterday."

I see your point, Wally. I just said "dennist" to myself a lot of times, and suddenly it sounded right.

dennist

Dentist, dennist, or dennis?

Alveolar Flapping? Sounds like the manager of a Swedish football team.
Anyway, it is becoming more common in the UK, particularly among sports reporters and traffic news presenters - presenners - on radio and television.

I agree, the practice does seem to be more common, although it has always been part of some regional accents. A Mummerset yokel might well have pronounced "gentleman" as "gennelmun" several centuries ago, as well as nowadays.