Who compiled the first English dictionary in alphabetical order? Were there any letters that were used differently when it was compiled?
I'm pretty sure "j" and "i" became distinct pretty recently, so were they listed as distinct, if at all?

Ah--you just watched that same NCIS re-run as I did, didn't you?

I thought it was Samuel Johnson, but now I'd better go look it up. Johnson's dictionary was at least one of the early ones. Have no idea about the "i" and the "j."

No, he was not the first, but he was the best.

Apparently this guy.

Isn't there a bit in The Black Adder series where King George III is working on a dictionary? Or was that The Black Adder himself? At any rate, here's Stephen Fry's review of Cawdrey's dictionary from the Amazon page:

quote:

"It is magicke, inchaunting, and makyth me to maffle and bleate. A fulgent thing, deserving of great claritude."
(Stephen Fry 20070304)

WM

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff:
I'm pretty sure "j" and "i" became distinct pretty recently, so were they listed as distinct, if at all?

It started in the 1600s, but it took some time for the letters to be regarded as distinct. Johnson's dictionary lists all words beginning with I and J together.

quote:

Originally posted by wordmatic:
Isn't there a bit in The Black Adder series where King George III is working on a dictionary?

Yeah, the king and Baldrick were working on a dictionary, but I don't think they got further than "C": "big blue wobbly thing that fish live in."

Simon Winchester's review of Cawdrey's dictionary:

quote:

Every time you look up a word in an English dictionary, you unwittingly pay homage to an unsung, half-forgotten Rutland schoolmaster who in 1604 came up with the brilliant idea of an alphabetical dictionary. Previously, no-one had imagined what today seems so blindingly obvious, that a dictionary should run seamlessly, from A to Z.

I don't believe this. There were many dictionaries before Cawdrey's. He didn't invent the idea of an alphabetical dictionary.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: goofy,

quote:

Originally posted by goofy:

"Previously, no-one had imagined what today seems so blindingly obvious, that a dictionary should run seamlessly, from A to Z."

I don't believe this. There were many dictionaries before Cawdrey's. He didn't invent the idea of an alphabetical dictionary.

WM, I haven't had access to NCIS since I left Oregon. No TV out here in the puckerbrush, and I will NOT pay some satellite outfit to beam advertisements to me!

Whoever did, it does seem, as Winchester said, blindingly obvious, but that's now, not then.
Where were the first alphabetically written dictionaries made? One might assume that as soon as commerce began between literate peoples such a thing would have been developed, but was it? Or were there "dictionary bards" whose job it was to know mutltiple languages?

Obviously, as each new word was created, it was placed at the back of the book. Thus we know that the first dictionaries had words listed in numerical order.

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff:
Where were the first alphabetically written dictionaries made?

I'm not sure. The earliest dictionaries, like the Sumerian and Akkadian word lists c2000 BC, were thematic, not alphabetical. According to the Oxford Companion to the English Language, it was many centuries after that that alphabetical listings became common. I'm skeptical that Cawdrey's dictionary was the first alphabetical one.

quote:

Originally posted by Proofreader:
Obviously, as each new word was created, it was placed at the back of the book.

Well, obviously. Now, if only we could find that book...

Just a small correction on Blackadder.

Johnson was seeking the patronage of the king. Baldrick used the only copy of his dictionary to light a fire. Blackadder and Baldrick tried to rewrite it. (Including the "C" joke)
It was then revealed that Baldrick hadn't burned it, he'd burned the only copy of Blackadder's novel.
Johnson went away angry after discovering that he'd left out the word "sausage".

quote:

Originally posted by BobHale:
Just a small correction on Blackadder.

That's more like an elaboration than a correction, since nothing I said was wrong.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: goofy,

quote:

I don't believe this. There were many dictionaries before Cawdrey's. He didn't invent the idea of an alphabetical dictionary.

Goofy, is there any evidence to contradict this? Suggestions on where to find it?

Not to be picky but you said

quote:

Originally posted by goofy:

Yeah, the king and Baldrick were working on a dictionary, but I don't think they got further than "C": "big blue wobbly thing that fish live in."

The King wasn't working on the dictionary. Blackadder was.

But hey, I've seen the whole series at least half a dozen times. It reruns all the time in the UK.

It was both a correction an an elaboration.

quote:

Originally posted by BobHale:
The King wasn't working on the dictionary. Blackadder was.

George and Baldrick helped Blackadder with the dictionary he was trying to write. They came up with three (lame) entries. That's what I was referring to.

quote:

Originally posted by BobHale:
But hey, I've seen the whole series at least half a dozen times.

So have I.

As I recall it, while Blackadder and Baldrick were burning the midnight oil trying to rewrite the dictionary, George was actually off somewhere reading the dictionary which he had taken away, leaving Blackadder's manuscript on the table which is how Baldrick came to burn Blackadder's work rather than the dictionary.

It was only after Blackadder and Baldrick had tried - and failed - to rewrite it, that they returned to face Johnson's wrath only to discover that George had had the dictionary manuscript all along.

George didn't contribute to their version at all. He couldn't because they hadn't told him that there was a problem.

I could be wrong, and now that I think of it, that would leave Hugh Laurie off-screen for a long time so maybe he did help but was such an idiot he didn't realise he had the dictionary, but whichever it is the discussion has inspired me to add it to my current download list. So for that I thank you.

Edit to add: It seems from checking wikipedia that both Baldrick and George assisted in the attempt. Now I HAVE to watch everything again as it has clearly been too long.

quote:

Originally posted by BobHale:
Now I HAVE to watch everything again as it has clearly been too long.

And so do I. It's been years since I've watched any of it. They are not re-running it over here. I loved that series.

Geoff, the episode of NCIS to which I was referring was the one in which "Ducky," the M.E. quizzes the special agents as to why Washington, D.C., had no "J" street. It is not until the end of the show that McGee explains that at the time that D.C. was laid out, the letter's "I" and "J" looked identical, so that there was a need to keep pedestrians from getting lost.

Wordmatic

We haven't identified the first, aphabetized dictionary yet. It's an interesting question, as many sites say Cawdrey's is.

Ambrogio Calepino's Latin dictionary from 1502 is alphabetical.

The Latin dictionary commonly called the Catholicon compiled by Johannes Januensis de Balbis (John Balbi of Genoa) in 1286 and one of the first books to be printed using Gutenberg's movable type system in 1460 was organized alphabetically.

I was going to suggest that someone edit Wikipedia to say it wasn't Cawdrey, but I see they say, "...one of the first dictionaries of the English language" so I think they are okay.

It would be hard for us to think of planning a dictionary in any other way, but back then it was probably a novel idea.

According to Wikipedia Cawley had to explain to his readers how alphabetical order worked so its use was presumably not widely known at the time, although the book was written "for the benefit & helpe of ladies, gentlewomen, or any other vnskilfull persons" (!)

On a similar matter it seems obvious to us that we should write from left to right, but many scripts are written from right to left. Actually, I think the most logical method is to write boustrophedonically, but that's just my opinion.

It would be hard for us to think of planning a dictionary in any other way, but back then it was probably a novel idea.

Well, I can imagine organizing one by semantics, but that's called a thesaurus. Also, some language systems, like Chinese, do not have an alphabetical order.

Really, no alphabetic order? How do their dictionaries work?

The Chinese don't have an alphabet so their books can't be organised alphabetically.

According to Wikipedia Chinese dictionaries can be ordered semantically, graphically or phonetically. See the article for more detail.

quote:

Originally posted by arnie:
Actually, I think the most logical method is to write boustrophedonically, but that's just my opinion.

Well now, Arnie--that's just plain evil! I would soon be lost in the text on that plan!
Boustrophedonically is a whole new word for me.

Wordmatic.

It gives equal rights to the left handed, I think.
And to Amish farmers, I suppose.

Not only is boustrophedonically new to me, but if I am pronouncing right, it is a 6-syllable double dactyl word!

The adverb boustrophedonically may be new to the forum, but the root, boustrophedon, has been mentioned several times. It was a vocabulary word in January 2008, for instance.

A Wordcraft search shows boustrophedon has been mentioned 14 times, the first time — first by wordnerd on May 12, 2003 and once even by Kalleh (January 02, 2011). Three of them were from this current discussion.

I did 2 searches for the word. The first gave 8 hits, the second 14. This has happened before when I search for something on Wordcraft. The first search may give only a few hits or maybe none, but the second often (probably usually) shows more, sometimes a lot more. Anyone have any idea why?

quote:

Anyone have any idea why?

You made a spelling mistake?

Nothing to do with Tinman's question, since I'm computer illiterate, but I do think the root, bous is related to Alexander the Great's horse's name.

quote:

once even by Kalleh (January 02, 2011). Three of them were from this current discussion.

I must have been faking.

quote:

but I do think the root, bous is related to Alexander the Great's horse's name.

It is. Not just related, but the same. The first part of boustrophedon means 'ox'. Alexander the Great's horse was named Bucephalas, meaning 'Ox-head'.

Obviously some of us were not paying attention at the time!

WM

quote:

Alexander the Great's horse was named Bucephalas, meaning 'Ox-head'.

Right! And my earlier comment about Amish farmers has to do with their using oxen or draught horses for plowing, just in case anyone didn't follow the reference. Lots of Amish around here. Fun to see fields being plowed and fertilized simultaneously!

quote:

Originally posted by Proofreader:

quote:

Anyone have any idea why?

You made a spelling mistake?

If I did I made it both times. I just cut-and-pasted it from arnie's post.

Cutting and pasting paragraphs can create multiple errors sometimes. The same goes for searching and replacing. I've seen some funny mistakes with that!

There was no spelling mistake.

Tinman, I think proof was saying that's usually the reason. Otherwise, I have no idea.