Here we are in the USA in the middle of the Democratic Party's blustery pontifications, and soon it'll be the Republicans' turn to do likewise. Lately there's been considerable ado about the word, "liberal" being out of vogue, due, many say, to the right wingers' constantly equating the term with "loony left" policies.

To me, "liberal" is a state of mind to which we should all aspire in a democractic society. I feel it's best exemplified by Voltaire's famous statement, "Though I may disagree with what you say, I will defend to the death your right to say it." Do those who call themselves "conservative" feel "It's my way or the highway?" Have politics so besmirched two good words that we're ashamed to be BOTH liberal AND conservative? Does Orwellian black/white thinking and doublespeak now rule our minds?

I suppose the two words are used incorrectly here in the states, technically speaking. However, I think everyone knows what is meant by a "liberal" or "conservative" candidate, at least here in the U.S. BTW, what about the moderates? I see moderates as people who don't have a particular party in mind, but are voting on the qualifications of the person. Let's face it, except for a few outliers, most Democrats are liberal and most Republicans are conservative.

BTW, It is great seeing you being able to start topics again! Now, we have to work on KHC's computer!

It wasn't quite Voltaire, though. The thought was his, but the words are those of his biographer, apparently.

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Voltaire ... biographer

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Evelyn Beatrice Hall, it seems.

I wish I could claim I knew that, but I had a little help from Google.

http://www.classroomtools.com/voltaire.htm

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Originally posted by Kalleh:
I think everyone knows what is meant by a "liberal" or "conservative" candidate, at least here in the U.S.

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If everyone knows what the terms mean, then surely you can define them. What do they mean?

The terms have changed considerably since the time conservation meant conserving our national resources rather than exploiting them. Republicans are generally seen as fiscally conservative in that they want to cut government spending. Yet the current Republican administration and the Reagan administration both increased government spending and the National Debt. The Democrats are seen as spendthrifts because they want to increase government spending for social programs, thus driving up the National Debt. Yet it was under a Democratic administration that the National Debt was nearly eliminated.

Republicans are considered conservative because they want to reduce the size and power of the Federal government, and return power to the States. Yet the current administration has increased the size and power of the federal government and has tried to usurp the powers of the States.

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I see moderates as people who don't have a particular party in mind, but are voting on the qualifications of the person.

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I think that defines an independent, not necessarily a moderate.

If, as you said, most Democrats are liberal, and most Republicans are conservative, then there must be some conservative Democrats and liberal Republicans. In fact, some people may be conservative in some areas and liberal in others.

To vote a straight Party ticket, regardless of the issues or the candidates is, I think, ridiculous. Many people do it, because it is easier to pick a Party than to study the issues and candidates.

Tinman, GDI

"Tinman, GDI"

I knew there was something I liked about you, Tinman!

I'd say that a majority of either the Democrats or the Republicans are centrist in politics, but it is the rhetoric of the far left and right wings of those parties which defines their public interfaces. Maybe Kalleh was thinking of centrism when she mentioned moderates. Of course, more than 50% of the elctorate chooses not to vote. I guess they're the apathetics.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jheem,

Sometimes, unfortunately, I speak before I think, instead of doing it right. Perhaps I did so here. I know that Richard and I, in e-mails, have debated what a conservative is and what a liberal is, and there is definitely a UK/US difference on this.

I agree with Tinman that the distinction is somewhat hazy now. Often, for example, I think of liberals favoring federal government, while the conservatives want state rights. Yet, without getting into specifics, that isn't always the case anymore.

I also agree with jheem that we hear the rhetoric of the far left and right wings, and therefore think that rhetoric defines the liberals (democrats) and conservatives (liberals.) Yes, Tinman, sometimes there are liberal republicans (many on the north shore of Chicago, actually, where we live) and conservative democrats (often in the south?)...and that really confuses things.

Now, jheem often confuses me. When he posts a word I don't know, I wonder if I am just ignorant, or if it really is a rare word. I didn't find either "apothetic" or "apothetics" in dictionary.com or onelook. There were 3 listings in Google, an Australian site, a Blog, and an interview with Matthew Lilley. Google had 144 Google sites for "apothetic," but none when I put in 'apothetic/definition'

What does it mean?

Apathetic

The personification of ignorance and apathy = "I don't know and I don't care."

Wasn't the word "apothetic?

Now, jheem often confuses me.

Nope, jheem was just misspelling. And not to prove a point. The apathetics are not to be confused with the Know Nothing party, though.

Interestingly enough, there are Greek words apothesis 'laying up in store' (< apotithemi) and apothetos 'not desired'. The latter word is rare, and only occurs in a Gk dictionary.

Years ago I was reading one of those spoof information pieces (can’t remember the exact source) on US politics, and the difference it gave between Republicans and Democrats made me smile:

(mis)quote:

“The Republican Party is a right-wing party. The Democrats are slightly less right-wing”.

I don’t smile so much now we have the same situation in the UK.

Beyond the Fringe summed up the US system: The Americans have a two party system "they have the Republican party, which is like our Conservative party, and they have the Democratic party, which is like ... our Conservative party."

LOL, jheem! I bet the thing I read based itself on that.

And nowadays, our Labour party is...like our Conservative party. <sigh>

The Party of the First Part meets the Party of the Second Part.

A woman in a hot air balloon realized she was lost. She lowered altitude and spotted a man in a boat below. She shouted to him, "Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour ago, but I don't know where I am."

The man consulted his portable GPS and replied, "You're in a hot air balloon approximately 30 feet above a ground elevation of 2346 feet above sea level. You are 31 degrees, 14.97 minutes north latitude and 100 degrees, 49.09 minutes west longitude."

She rolled her eyes and said, "You must be a Republican."
"I am," replied the man. "How did you know?"

"Well," answered the balloonist, "everything you told me is technically correct, but I have no idea what to make of your information, and I'm still lost. Frankly, you've not been much help to me."

The man smiled and responded, "You must be a Democrat."
"I am," replied the balloonist. "How did you know?"

"Well," said the man, "you don't know where you are or where you're going. You've risen to where you are due to a large quantity of hot air. You made a promise that you have no idea how to keep, and you expect me to solve your problem. You're in exactly the same position you were in before we met, but somehow, now it's my fault.

Nope, jheem was just misspelling.

Oh, that is really funny! Here I spent considerable time trying to find out what it meant. And, Jerry didn't even think I knew what apathetic meant!

Interestingly, in an article that I read recently about the Language Log Blog (and posted about in Links for Linguaphiles), I hear that they have been talking about what they calls "eggcorns," or unintentional homonyms, such as saying "egg corn" instead of "acorn."

The article says, "Language Log bloggers searched for the phrase 'inclement weather' using Google, one of the most popular Internet search engines, and then searched for the eggcorn 'inclimate weather.' For every 16 Web sites that said 'inclement weather,' there was one that said 'inclimate weather.'"

"For every 33 sites that said 'Tongue in cheek,' there was one that had the eggcorn 'tongue and cheek.' And ever since Language Log mentioned the eggcorn 'wedding vowels' as a variant of 'wedding vows,' it has been getting hits from Google searchers who type the former when they apparently are looking for the latter."

I guess I found some of these eggcorns on Google when I found 144 sites for apothetic!

It didn't even occur to me that is was a misspelled word!

It's ironic that the original Jeffersonian Democrats (who were called Republicans) were anti-Federalist (i.e., Whig) and the first Republican president elected trampled the southern states right to succeed from the Union.

A good example of an egg corn would be "a napron" and "an apron".

"Egg corn?" Whatever happened to "mondegreen?"

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Quoth Kalleh: And, Jerry didn't even think I knew what apathetic meant!

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I suppose apothetic is to Pothos as apathetic is to Pathos, neither of which is in any way related to my assessment of Kalleh's knowledge of meanings.

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Originally posted by Asa Lovejoy:
"Egg corn?" Whatever happened to "mondegreen?"

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Wouldn't a mondegreen be a subdivision of egg corn being, specifically, the kind of egg corn you find in song?

My favorite egg corn came from the story (true) of the tourist to New York City who had never before heard the expression "a nominal egg." It means expensive and this person began dropping it into her conversation even though she did not understand its meaning (always a bad idea) and only that a charming New York City cab driver had used it in that sense.

It was finally pointed out to her that the cabbie, with a thick New York accent, had been complaining that something had cost him "an arm and a leg"!


Actually, come to think of it, I like the term "nominal eggs" for this subject better than "egg corns."

"Nominal egg?" Like a Faberge egg?

Here be the post that first distinguished mondegreens and eggcorns. Liberman wanted something that meant the linguistic reanalysis of an occasionally-heard expression, rather than the mishearing of singing.

Oh, thanks for that, aput. I would have considered it a mondegreen, too, because I didn't know that mondegreens only come from poems or songs.

There are a lot of eggcorns on the Web, that's for sure. I have learned to be very wary when using Google to look up words or sayings. I have sometimes not been sure of a quote or an adage, so I have put what I think it is into Google. When I have found lots of sites using it, I have assumed that I was right...only to be mercilessly corrected by some of my fellow wordcrafters.

Now, I go to the source of the quote!

Well, aput, I've learned something! Thanks!

Back when I was a small child I used to listen to Abbott and Costello on the radio. It was many years before I learned that their names weren't Butt Abbott and Lucas Tello.

I believe that comedian Norm Crosby made a career out of such mishearings, with a few Spoonerisms thrown in also.

I fear we're wandering rather off-topic relative to the thread title (although I suspect that's not very problematic in this community), but having now discovered mondegreens, I have to relate my own childhood version. For some years I happily sang along to that old nursery favorite, "Thistle Man" (he played one, he played knick knack on my thumb...) I'm not sure how old I was when I learned the real words, but it's interesting to note that nobody ever thought that I was singing anything but "This old man". Aren't homonyms wonderful?

With regard to "apothetic", one could always postulate a relationship to apotheosis. I'm hard pressed, however, to decide whether an apothetic (n.) would be one who deifies or one who is deified...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Eric L. Andersen,

Continuing the new tangent, here are three of my favourite mondegreens:

Both my brother and I heard the first and second ones, even though logically we knew what we heard couldn't be right. The third was told to me by a friend.

"It really really really cut a bun (could happen)" - Blur, The Universal

"We'll make a misfit (The way you make me feel)" - Michael Jackson

"Soup inside your bum* (Suicide Blonde)" - INXS

It's amazing how even when you know the real lyrics, the mondegreens still sound plausible if you listen to the songs with them in mind

* bum = backside, not hobo - although come to think of it, the US version at least makes more sense!

mondegreens

I still hear the Beatles singing Dr Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band in the reprise song of the similar name even though I know they're singing "Sgt Pepper's", and even though they'd originally recorded the former before somebody pointed out that it was a soft drink in the States.

"Got my style, got my sausage, gonna use my fingers, gonna use my my my imagination."

I have no idea what Chrissie Hynde was actually singing, but I do find myself humming Brass in Pocket every time I hear the word sausage at the end of a sentence

Just in case anyone was wondering, the chorus to Brass in Pocket goes:

Gonna use my arms
Gonna use my legs
Gonna use my style
Gonna use my sidestep
Gonna use my fingers
Gonna use my, my, my imagination

Does that make more sense?

Sidestep?

I think sausage makes more sense.

Doesn't this post belong over with the pickle discussion?

Probably so, Jo! Now what kind of goofy mental trompe d'oeil does one call it when one hears a statement but has a mental image that may or may not be related? For example, if one has a "short fling" with someone else, it COULD mean that one tosses one's knickers (flings one's shorts) and...