Once again I tread on thin ice, hoping I don't offend someone's political stance. If I do, it is out of ignorance & not on purpose!

In some of my nutrition texts about foods of different cultures, the Moslems are discussed. My AHD says "Moslems" or "Muslims", believers in Islam. Google says, "do you mean Muslim" when I google "Moslem". Are they exactly the same? Just wondering. If so, why 2 terms? Is Moslem an older term?

I think it's a shibboleth, with Muslim being more like the Arabic pronunciation, I've been told.

Interesting. I was confused since almost everyone uses Muslim these days, yet my texts speak of the Moslem culture. I think there must have been a change in the use. Texts are usually at least 2 yaers behind.

The AHD says "moslem" is a variant of "muslim", which is Arabic for "one who surrenders" ("one who surrenders (to God)", according to M-W).

The AHD says "Muslim", "Moslem", "Mohammedan", "Muhammedan", "Muhammadan" are synonyms.

Tinman

Reviving a thread

We are going to be hosting a group of Jordanian nurses and officials, as well as the Jordanian Princess. Needless to say, we needed some training! So, we hired this woman from the protocal office (or something). She was trained in the Kennedy administration, and has been in all the administrations since. She sounds old, right? Well, I don't know her age, but I think she'd have most men here drooling! She was quite beautiful...either she has aged well, or some of it isn't natural!

Back to the point of this post! She said that "moslem" evolved merely because of the American pronunciation (or, mis-pronunciation!) of the word. It is too be pronounced moose-lem. Good luck to me for pronouncing it right. When I am stressed, I alway revert back to my old ways of pronouncing words.

Now, this is a quiz! She told us which administration had the most internation protocol faux pas (what is the plural?) and which the least? Can you guess (no fair guessing, Shu, because I told you!) You may be surprised; I was.

At any rate, I have learned so much about how "arrogant," "rude," "casual," etc., Americans are. I have learned a lot about that culture too.

Here are only some of our instructions:

1) We had to role play how to had our business cards! "Take it out with the right hand. Switch to the left hand. Take out the card with the right hand, and hand it over with the words facing the person." Oh, and NEVER under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES write on their card. It would be very rude!

2) Offer them something to eat or drink. They will refuse. Offer it again. They will refuse. The third time they will accept. (Sheesh!)

3) I loved this one since I have to take them on a tour of a hospital and nursing program: NEVER wear white or green. Now, nurses often wear white uniforms and green scrubs!

4) We must have an expensive gold pen and business card case. That is non-negotiable.

5) No crossing of our legs or showing the soles of our shoes.

And, the list goes on and on and on and on! They also are none too happy that I am Jewish!

Classical Arabic only had three vowels [a i u], and the word was Muslim. Modern Arabic dialects often also have [e o], and Moslem is therefore a possible pronunciation in some forms of colloquial Arabic.

Likewise classical Muhammad can appear in modern Arabic as Mohammed.

Make the S an [s] sound, to rhyme with 'puss-limb', as muzlim means something like 'underdog'.

And don't say (any form of) Muhammadan(ism): it's now regarded as offensive, as they think it implies worship of Muhammad.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kalleh:
... faux pas (what is the plural?) ...

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The AHD at Dictionary.com shows faux pas as both singular and plural in spelling, but different in pronunciation. The s is silent in the singular and prononunced as z in the plural.

Which administration had the most international faux pas? I don't know . How far back do you want to go?

We Americans, politicians included, either don't care or don't realize that many of our everyday acceptable behaviors in this country are considered rude or downright insulting in other countries. The combination of arrogance and ignorance can be deadly, and we seem to possess both in abundance.

I'll get off my soapbox.

Tinman

I agree, Tinman.

Our expert gave us some amazing stories of presidents' faux pas, and they have protocol experts! Most recently, I hear, Bush's protocol expert was fired because of a gesture he made to the Australians as his car was motoring away; to Australians it means, "We will conquer you!"

The quiz was from the Kennedy administration forward to the GWB's administration. Come on, how about a few guesses guys?

While it goes against my political prejudices, I'll guess Johnson worst and Reagan best.

Quote "...The quiz was from the Kennedy administration forward to the GWB's administration. Come on, how about a few guesses guys?..."

Oh. So this isn't an international quiz, then. Having said which, I would be surprised if it weren't a US administration that came top of the tree for faux pas even if the rest of the world were contenders.

The least number of faux pas? More difficult. The British would come lowish, I suspect and the Italians rather higher.

The HSBC Bank shows some moderately amusing TV commercials here based on how easy it is to offend people from other countries with what is, to you, a perfectly innocent action or gesture. The implication is, of course, that the bank's experts will help you avoid such pitfalls.

One that come to mind warns about the common gesture of forming an "O" with forefinger and thumb, to indicate "OK". Apparently in Brazil this is a deadly insult...

Here's a couple of words in Arabic: kafir and `ilj (plural `uluj), both usually translated as unbeliever, infidel, or non-Muslim. They're both rather pejorative in Arabic. The former word was borrowed into South African English and Afrikaans as a deadly insult for non-whites. It has been my observation that cultural insensitivity is usually symmetric.

One that come to mind warns about the common gesture of forming an "O" with forefinger and thumb, to indicate "OK". Apparently in Brazil this is a deadly insult...
Oh arnie, according to our "protocol authority," you are so right. That Okay sign to Americans means "things are great;" to Brazilians it represents female genitalia; to Japanese it means money; to the Germans it means 'asshole;' to the Turks, Greeks and Maltese it means a lewd oriface; and to Middle Easterners it is just plain insulting.

The Churchillian Victory sign was where GWB went wrong. To the U.S. and Great Britain it means victory, though the palm should be facing outward. To the Australians, when the palm faces the gesturer, it means "I wish you defeat!" To Middle Eastern Nations it has a sexual meaning in that it is an invitation for amour.

So...only Asa has guessed here? Come on; how about a few more guess before I tell you. Here are the choices in case you've forgotten your presidents:

Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton, and Bush Jr.

Actually I like Asa's guesses but I'll try to puzzle out a few of my own.

First off, John "I am a jelly doughnut" Kennedy and Gerald Ford weren't in office long enough to make huge numbers of errors. Nixon was too sneaky to commit too many blunders (attempting to subvert the Constitution falls under another category completely) and Reagan, despite his recent deification, did and said little and, as a result, did and said little wrong. We're just lucky he had smart people making his decisions and speeches for him which freed him up to be photographed with oversized props (a huge hammer for crime, a huge pair of scissors for taxes) which was his presidential specialty. A sidenote, though: One speechwriter had the temerity to include the word "paridigm" in one of Reagan's weekly radio speeches and he pronounced it, of course, "para-dijim."

Carter, on the other hand, was once told by a high ranking Middle Easterner (the Shah of Iran? I don't recall) that another country in that region was impotent but in doing so used the common mispronounciation "im-PO-tent." Carter, a southerner, quickly agreed "Oh yes, we think they're im-PO-tent ("important") too!" An on-looker, catching the miscommunication, just rolled his eyes and said nothing.

George Dubya stuck his foot in it by using the word "crusade," an innocent enough word to the average American, in reference to our presence in the Middle East today. They're a bit more touchy about history out there than we are. And yes, beyond any doubt our present White House resident is a complete moron, a fascist, and a danger to our country and the world as a whole but I won't pick him for the worst offender, blunder-wise.

Let me go with Bush Sr., with his extensive experience in world politics as being the least offensive of the presidents given and Clinton, with eight years of being a good ol' boy and, as such, prone to an occasional miscue, as the worst.

As with Asa's picks, these do not reflect personal preferences.

Johnson: bomb them

Carter: I want to have sexual intercourse with Polish people

Bush 1: *vomit*

Not sure which to choose here.

With Reagan there were dozens, if not thousands, of verbal miscues. My favorite was "We've decided to outlaw the Soviet Union. Bombing begins in ten minutes." which he jokingly used as a mike check. Some joke! Nearly touched off World War 3.

For those interested in why Reagan should NOT be on Rushmore or the 10-dollar bill, I strongly recommend the book Reagan's Reign of Error. Nancy's only lucky that Michael Moore wasn't making movies yet...

And yet I'll bet that Reagan won't be the #1 most blunderful president even though, in reality, he very probably is. His teflon presidency will probably extend to the grave and beyond.

Well, before we offend the whole universe with this thread (sorry wordcrafter!), I had better give the answers. This comes straight from the mouths of people who do protocol at the White House. As I said, you may be surprised!

Worst - Clinton

Best - Reagan (think Nancy)

The only faux pas given was that recent one I posted by GWB. I would love to hear more!

Let's be circumspect about purely political polemic that might offend those whose views differ.