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Today I read this in a letter: "It is imperative that our society periodically acknowledges its own diverse composition...." Is "acknowledges" correct? Should it have been "acknowledge"? Why? | ||
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"Acknowledges" is correct to my mind since "society" although made up of many people, is itself a singular noun. Similar nouns are "club", "company" and "shoal". That the writer meant to use the noun as a singular is confirmed by his or her use of "its" as the pronoun (not "their"). Richard English | |||
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Some people would consider "acknowledges" wrong, and insist on "acknowledge" because the subjunctive is traditionally used in that clauses that express necessity. It is the same in structure as something like I ask that he be discharged. However, the indicative is also found in this context. | |||
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the subjunctive is traditionally used in that clauses that express necessity Interesting what happens when the collective noun concord rule collides with the present subjunctive that clause rule. And, I use the word rule cum grano of a grammatical salis. —Ceci n'est pas un seing. | |||
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Clearly it depends on what the sentence means - which actually proves to me that the sentence is possibly not as well-written as it might have been. Richard English | |||
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Boy, I really need to brush up on my subjunctive and collective noun concord rule. Is the latter the same as a collective noun rule, or does the "concord" change that? I might have used "acknowledge," but then I would have said "their own..." On the other hand, I also think it imperative that society continuously, not periodically, acknowledge their own diverse composition." | |||
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| <Asa Lovejoy> |
I think using Richard's position is typically British, whereas we in the US would omit the "s." I see neither as wrong, but as a matter of stylistic preference. | ||
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concord Concord is also called agreement. (I learned the former term, which is the one used in classical philology, and prefer it.) Verbs in English usually agree with the number of their subjects: e.g., "he takes" ~ "they take". Collective nouns are nouns that denote a collection or group of objects. They are singular in form but sometimes treated—differently in different dialects—as plurals in noun-verb agreement: e.g., British English "the band are not quite right" ~ American English "the band is not quite right". These two linguistic phenomena are different from the subjunctive mood. I was just trying to point out that language, as a system, is more complex than most people think, especially with reference to grammatical rules. —Ceci n'est pas un seing. | |||
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1 indicative, notional concord (collective noun concord): It is imperative that our society periodically acknowledge its own diverse composition 2 indicative, morphosyntactic concord: It is imperative that our society periodically acknowledges its own diverse composition 3 subjunctive, any kind of concord: It is imperative that our society periodically acknowledge its own diverse composition One of the problems, if it is a problem, is English's paucity of inflections. We can't tell the difference between 1 and 3. | |||
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Well, I must be wrong about this because heaven knows this site makes me realize how much I don't know about language (and I won't even say linguistics!). However, I'd say (wrongly, I assume) "society periodically acknowledge their..." If I were to use "acknowledge," I'd assume the society is a group of people, much like "the faculty graded their students' papers." I must be wrong, though, because Goofy didn't use "their." Why is that? | |||
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I would always treat a collective noun as singular and most of the literate people I know would do the same. However, it's fair to say that many UK English speakers do treat certain collective nouns as plural and it seems to create little dispute. Richard English | |||
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I think I'm wrong actually. If the noun is plural in meaning and takes a plural verb, we often use "their" instead of "its". That's one way to tell that we're using notional concord. Sorry for the confusion. 1 It is imperative that our society periodically acknowledge their own diverse composition | |||
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I would never use this construction and believe it's wrong. Society is a singular noun; the plural is societies. So, "It is imperative that our society periodically acknowledge its own diverse composition" or "It is imperative that our societies periodically acknowledge their own diverse compositions" Richard English | |||
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collective noun
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I am not convinced of accuracy of The American Heritage® Book of English Usage when it suggests that there is a difference in the way we use collective nouns. I believe that the US rule is the same as the British rule. We use the singular when the noun refers to a unit: "the class is too large" and plural when the individuals comprising the unit are being referred to: "the class are quarrelling". Just as Americans do. Richard English | |||
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I think you have a point. Is "society" even a collective noun? The society is quarreling *The society are quarreling At least to me. However: It is imperative that our society periodically acknowledge their own diverse composition Might be acceptable because the verb is subjunctive (and therefore not inflected), and their is being used as a common number pronoun.This message has been edited. Last edited by: goofy, | |||
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Is "society" even a collective noun? I don't doubt that it is, but what is at issue here is whether to use a singular or plural verb with it. There are pronounced differences between American and British English on this point. I cannot say "the band are not quite right" unless I am quoting from the Beatles' song. Likewise, I'd never say or write: "the government are". For me, society is also a collective noun, but it takes a singular verb. Whether the British treat it as one or not is a valid question. From Richard's vehemence—or is he being ironic—I suppose the answer to that is a resounding "no". A separate question seems to be whether one uses they as a plural pronoun in refering to a collective noun which takes the plural verb. —Ceci n'est pas un seing. | |||
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For me too. Just as I said in my posting. I can't understand why anyone is unclear about my stance. Richard English | |||
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I was thinking: if it's only and always singular, how can it be a collective noun? But now that I've actually read the entry on collective nouns in MWCDEU, I see what you're saying. MWCDEU has some other examples of singular collective nouns, for instance - Samuel Johnson, preface to the dictionary, 1755 | |||
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Well, now I am confused. I don't see how you can have a collective noun that takes a singular verb. For example, I often use "faculty" as a collective noun, but then I will use a plural verb. I will agree, though, that the original sentence we are discussing sounds better with "acknowledges its own" than "acknowledge their own." Still, I think if you use "acknowledge" you should use "their." Interesting discussion. | |||
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I demand that he acknowledge himself. He acknowledges himself. I demand that society (as a whole) acknowledge itself. Society acknowledges itself. I demand that society (members individually) acknowledge themselves Society acknowledge themselves. Society acknowledges themselves. (Sometimes in US) Seems fairly straightforward, or did I get it wrong? Myth Jellies Cerebroplegia--the cure is within our grasp | |||
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Of course. But this has nothing to do with collective nouns; it is simply a matter of subject/verb agreement. I acknowledge You acknowledge He/she/it acknowledges We acknowledge You acknowledge They acknowledge Of course, it might all be simpler if English were to drop the solitary instance of agreement and allow the third person singular verb to take the same form as all the others. It would surely cause little or no confusion (and, indeed, the dropping of the "s" in third-person singular verbs is already heard in some forms of slang). Richard English | |||
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I don't see how you can have a collective noun that takes a singular verb. A collective noun is one that is singular in form, (e.g., band, faculty, government) but refers to a group of people or objects. Some collective nouns take singular or plural verb forms in subject-verb agreement. Rather than having grammatical agreement, collective nouns are sometimes said to have notional agreement or concord. The is just one area of contention or confusion involving collective nouns. The other two under discussion here are (1) pronoun agreement (i.e., though singular in form they are often refered to by plural pronouns) and (2) collective nouns which occur in phrase using of and a plural noun (e.g., a host of others) taking the plural form of verb in agreement. —Ceci n'est pas un seing. | |||
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