All non-medical people, is "across the lifespan" a clear phrase to you?

With a committee I wrote a position paper to be presented to our board of directors. One smarmy lawyer (not a nurse) sent it back to committee because it hadn't defined "across the lifespan." When I then took it to my committee, they became recalcitrant and didn't want to define it. They said he was being a jerk; that it is perfectly understood by everyone. They thought we'd look foolish if we were to define it. I knew we had to define it to get the board to approve it, so I persuaded them to write a definition. They first wanted to get "all academic" to get back at the board, using a definition similar to "points of personhood." Finally I convinced them to find a definition in a textbook, and we adapted that. Back to the board meeting with our definition! I can't recall it right now, but the board didn't like it and wanted, "birth to death." I couldn't live with that as it says nothing about pregnancy! Finally, we agreed on "phases of human life." I began to see the difficulties of lexicographers!

But, back to my original question, would you need a definition or would the phrase be clear to you?

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
I can't recall it right now, but the board didn't like it and wanted, "birth to death." I couldn't live with that as it says nothing about pregnancy! Finally, we agreed on "phases of human life."

I don't understand your rejection of the "birth to death" definition of "across the lifespan." "Birth to death" encompasses everything that happens between those two times, which would include pregnancy and all the "phases of human life." Pregnancy, however, is not universally included in "birth to death." Very few men and quite a few women never become pregnant.

I would take "across the lifespan" to mean the same as "from the cradle to the grave," meaning the average life expectancy of a population. The term is not exact since the average lifespan varies from population to population; for example, women in the U.S have a greater life expectancy than men (72 for men and 79 for women, according to this site). So I would interpret the term to mean 70+ years. It could also be used metaphorically to refer to the lifetime (or lifespan) of an idea, a fad, or most anything.

Tinman

My guess is that it means from conception to death.

If my guess is correct, then the "idea" metaphor becomes even more mysterious and interesting.

In animals, humans for instance, the gestation period is predictable, measurable, and observable, but the time between conception and actalization of an idea is ... something else. And who can tell when an idea is dead?

If applied to plants, does it include the "life" of fertilized seed not yet planted?

Kalleh, I notice your correct distinction between persuading them (to act) and convincing them (to think or believe).

Actually no. I was puzzled by it at first, then thought it must refer to goods or products, or perhaps more accurately objects that deteriorate: a bolt might need to be guaranteed across the lifespan of a bridge, because it can't be easily replaced once in.

Now referring to human lifespans it's odd, perhaps because of the 'the'. Someone's lifespan, their lifespan, but 'the' is oddly impersonal.

Also, given that it does refer to human lives, it's not at all clear whether someone's lifespan includes their gestation.

Not really related to the question but I am always intrigued by products that are "guaranteed for life". I queried it once when I was told that a biro was "guaranteed for life" and was informed that it was guaranteed for the life of the biro not for my life. Quite possibly the most meaningless guarantee ever issued - it's guaranteed to go on working until it stops working !

Re the OP though, I'd have understood it with a couple of reservations. Like aput I think the use of "the" makes it sound more like a reference to a product than a person and I'm also not really sure that I know where the "lifespan" starts - conception , 28 weeks, birth?

Maybe that's why the original phrase was being queried because it isn't clear when the lifespan starts.

It does sound like any pro-lifer or pro-choicer would be itching to argue over the phrase, so explaining precisely what you mean sounds sensible.

quote:

Kalleh, I notice your correct distinction between persuading them (to act) and convincing them (to think or believe).

Oh, Jerry, I confess that was by mistake. I had vaguely known there was a distinction between "persuade" and "convince," but now you make it very clear to me. Thanks!

I guess the smarmy lawyer was right; "across the lifespan" seems not to be so clear to those outside of health care.

Tinman, being a literalist, "birth" to me means the birth of the baby, not all the conception and pregnancy issues.

Good point, Graham! As a pro-choicer myself, now I am worried about the final definition that was written by the board:

-- An understanding of all phases of human life.

Our recommendation to them had been:

-- Exposure to, understanding of, and an appreciation of how people develop at various stages of life.

quote:

-- An understanding of all phases of human life.

I think the Board is safe with that definition, Kalleh. While it's unmeasurable and unfathomable, its scope ranges from the infinitesimal to infinity. On the surface it glitters, but it's virtually meaningless. Par performance for many Boards and Committees.

I suppose you are right, Jerry. My committee had really wanted the "development" part kept because that is the important aspect for nurses. Also, since these were our recommendations for nursing programs, we wanted to be specific that the students should have exposure to (that is, work with the actual patients), understand, and appreciate the stages of development.

However, maybe it's just as well that the definition is "meaningless." After all, we didn't think it needed to be defined in the first place!

Looking backward, Kalleh, my assessment strikes me as somewhat Rude, definitely Crude, and, at best, Blunt. None of that bad stuff was intentional.

But I can't help but wonder, if you have two nurses to compare, and the one has an understanding of all phases of human life and the other does not, how was that determination arrived at ??

I would like to see the phrase in full context before I pass judgement. "Lifespan" is understandable enough when used appropriately - but all to often it is not.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
Tinman, being a literalist, "birth" to me means the birth of the baby, not all the conception and pregnancy issues.

I'm not sure why you addressed this to me, Kalleh. I said nothing about conception.

Tinman

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
All non-medical people, is "across the lifespan" a clear phrase to you?

........

But, back to my original question, would you need a definition or would the phrase be clear to you?

Until you explained it, I had no idea what it meant.

We say "from cradle to grave" over here.

quote:

Originally posted by jerry thomas:


If my guess is correct, then the "idea" metaphor becomes even more mysterious and interesting.

And who can tell when an idea is dead?

Yeah, I see what you mean, Jerry. I don't know what I was thinking about when I used the word idea. It was a poor choice.

Tinman

quote:

I don't understand your rejection of the "birth to death" definition of "across the lifespan." "Birth to death" encompasses everything that happens between those two times, which would include pregnancy and all the "phases of human life." Pregnancy, however, is not universally included in "birth to death." Very few men and quite a few women never become pregnant.

Tinman, your above comment was why I addressed the "birth to death" issue with you. Perhaps I didn't understand your point then. I thought you were saying that birth to death shouldn't be rejected as being across the lifespan. I don't think it encompasses all that occurs before birth. It is your last 2 sentences that confuse me. You seem to contradict your original point that birth to death encompasses all phases of human life.

Cradle to grave doesn't do it for me because, again, there is a lot that takes place before the cradle.

But I can't help but wonder, if you have two nurses to compare, and the one has an understanding of all phases of human life and the other does not, how was that determination arrived at ??

Jerry, these were very general definitions. The faculty's job would be to break it down, making more specific objectives that students would have to attain. It wouldn't be easy, though, I agree because "understanding" isn't very measureable.

life-span wouldn't include mortuary or funerary needs. the body has an existence either side of consciousness awareness (and, as in my case, sometimes in spite of it). 'lifespan' is an applied scale rather than a description of the body's existence in totality. 'all phases' encompasses all applicable scales, yet still doesn't describe the animal in question. perhaps 'all aspects of human being, including all that metaphysical shit that no-one really understands' is the go (although the lawyer may want a definition of 'that metaphysical shit', in which case you'd be both genius and saviour if you could produce such).

ask the lawyer to define the difference between 'alive' and 'alive in law' (if there is one) and then you'll be able to supply to them firm boundaries of being (within the law, which is the only effective reality, of course ).

beans

"Cradle to grave" and "birth to death" are synonymous to me. Yes, to get technical, there is a period of time between birth and the cradle, just as there is a period of time between death and the grave, unless you're buried alive. But, metaphorically, I equate them. Either one takes in "phases of human life." The point I meant to make about pregnancy is that fewer than half of all people ever become pregnant. Yet you rejected the term "birth to death" because it didn't specifically refer to pregnancy. If your definition did include pregnancy, it would exclude over half the people. But all people experience birth, and [i]birth[i] implies there must have been a pregnancy involved.

Would you rather I say from "conception to death" or from "second (or third) trimester" till death? This is a gray area, since not everyone agrees when life begins. How about "womb to tomb?"

If death is considered to occur with the loss of cerebral brain function (EEG pattern), should the begining of life be deemed to occur with beginning of cerebral brain function?

If you use the phrase "phases of human life" in your definition, are you obligated to list what those phases are?

What are the phases of human life? Can you list them? Here 's one article about it.

Tinman