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Nathan Bierma, in his "At Random: On Language" column in the Chicago Tribune talks about what linguists call the "conventionally indirect" request, which is asking for something indirectly. For example, when you say, "Would you mind doing this for me?", you really mean, "Please do this." A linguist at Britain's University of Surrey, Rosina Marquez-Reiter, compared the indirect requests of English speakers in Britain and Spanish speakers in Spain. The study set up role playing situations where they told students in each country to make requests for things like borrowing a book or swapping a bus seat. Interestingly, the Spanish speakers were more certain that person would comply to the requests. The English speakers were therefore more tentative. For example, when swapping a seat on the bus, the English speaker said, "Excuse me, I was wondering, would it be possible if we could sit in these two seats and you could move to another place?" The Spanish speaker said, "No le importa sentarse en otro lado?" Or "Do you mind sitting somewhere else?" I'd be more inclined to ask as the British students did. Overall the Spanish students assumed more familiarity and expected more helpfulness than the British students did. Does that ring true, Brits? Americans, do you think we are more like the Brits? I tend to, but that may just be I.This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh, | ||
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And we often answer "sure," answering the implied request, rather than the actual question. TinmanThis message has been edited. Last edited by: tinman, | |||
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I think the Americans are more direct (that is, like the Spaniards cited here). We tend not to be too direct in our requests and to hedge them around with platitudes as well. Englishman: "Excuse me. I wonder whether I could trouble you for the salt please?" American: "Would you pass the salt?" In both cases, though, the response to the successful completion of the task is likely to be the same: "Thank you". Richard English | |||
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A work colleague sent out e-mails to 150 authorities across the country the other day requesting certain information. However, nowhere in his message does he specifically ask for the information. The closest he gets is "it would be useful if we held..." Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. | |||
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Utterances of this type fall under the rubric of speech acts, in linguistics and the philosophy of language. They've been written about mostly by J L Austin (deceased) at Oxford and John Searle at UC Berkeley. They come under pragmatics (doing things with language) rather than semantics (meaning of word, compounds, phrases, and sentences) or syntax (putting words together into phrases or sentences). | |||
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That I should be me. 's an explanation from CMS.
Tinman | |||
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My wife is a master of the conventionally indirect request. It took me years to figure them all out. For example, Are you hungry? means I'm hungry, but Do you want to drive? means I want you to drive; What do you want for dinner? means I'm thinking of dish; try to guess what it is; We need to clean the garage means You need to clean the garage; Where are you going?! means You should have turned right back there, dear. There must be a thousand of them. | |||
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Asa here, on Sunflower's computer. Neveu, you have mastered a most delicate art, and should have a long and happy marriage! :-) On my flight to Sunflower's house I was asked by an elderly woman if I would mind exchanging my aisle seat for her window seat. I was most happy to comply. Then the woman seated in the center seat mentioned that her husband was seated in the same row, but on the other side, also in a window seat. I offered to exchange with him too, so that everyone in the whole aisle got the seat he or she desired. I'm sure that personality enters into this situation. I'm a pretty compiant person, AND I aquired a window seat, which I desired. Had I not desired a window seat, and had I been of a less compliant nature, our rendition of Airbus A-320 Musical Chairs wouldn't have happened. | |||
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This is different from, say, UK and US English. These are two versions of the same language. Women and men speak two quite different languages and their apparent similarity is one of the reasons why so few people (especially men) are aware of this. Read "Men are from Mars; Women are from Venus" by Clark or "Why men don't listen and why women can't read maps" by Allan and Barbara Pease. Now chaps, for the true experts in woman-speak: what is the answer to this simple question? The scenario first: your partner has just emerged from the dressing room where she has been for the last 45 minutes getting dressed for a night out. You are looking again at your watch, which you have been doing for the last 40 minutes. She is wearing a pair of red shoes and carrying a pair of blue shoes. She speaks: Which shoes do you think I should wear? You have just two minutes before you have to leave and you think the red shoes look better. What do you say? Richard English | |||
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..... "I think you should wear the wellies." or "Doesn't matter. The booking ws for seven and we've missed it now." or "I like whichever ones you hate." or "Good grief, how can you even walk in those?" Can you tell I'm not married? "No man but a blockhead ever wrote except for money." Samuel Johnson. | |||
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Hit her over the head with the blue shoes and drag her out to the car by the hair. Can you tell I'm not married? Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. | |||
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My wife does not own red shoes. I would tell her that there are no red shoes, and that she should wear the pair of dark-blue shoes. Can you tell that I am married? It has been suggested that women and politicians use more passive constructions and that that is so because you can optionally delete the logical subject (or agent) of the sentence.This message has been edited. Last edited by: jheem, | |||
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Amazing. 100% failure so far - and the women reading this are probably thinking, "...Is this some kind of joke? It's perfectly obvious what the answer should be". But they know that the question is phrased in Woman; their shortsidedness is in not realising that men don't even recognise the language, let alone understand it. The three respondents so far are still assuming it's English! Hold off, ladies. Let the chaps have a go first! Richard English | |||
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Is it "42"? "No man but a blockhead ever wrote except for money." Samuel Johnson. | |||
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Amazing. 100% failure so far Horse pucky! I think everybody—men and women—knows what you're talking about. And you do realize that's how language is used. Oh, and just for the record, Bob, Arnie, and I were waxing sarcastic. | |||
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"Read "Men are from Mars; Women are from Venus" by Clark or "Why men don't listen and why women can't read maps" by Allan and Barbara Pease." Asa pointed out that John Gray is the author of "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus." I'm a woman, and I don't know what you mean about the red shoes vs the blue shoes. I guess I don't speak "woman speak."  | |||
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Maybe they know what I'm talking about - but do they know the answer to the question? Apologies about John Gray - I have only just re-read the book and didn't bother to check; for some reason I had Clark in my head. That's the second time I've posted from unchecked memory on this board - and the second time I've been quite wrong:-( Richard English | |||
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Tinman, I see the example you give as different from my statement. In your explanation clearly "me" is right because it is the object of the verb "let." In my sentence "be" is a linking verb (search for "Charlotte," which is the example), and therefore shouldn't it be "I?" Or does the "just" change it? Regarding the talk about men versus women, I will never forget when Richard flew in to Chicago and I picked him up at the airport. We were driving to my office, and I was hungry, not having had lunch. I said to him, "Are you hungry?" He said, "No." Obviously, I thought, "Oh darn!" After a bit, he said, "Are you hungry?" "I am starving," I said, and we did stop for lunch. At that time we discussed the differences between women and men. neveu, your examples were hilarious!  By the way, Richard, congrats on your 2700th post!  | |||
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Ack! I can't blame you guys for not knowing what to say - I always get those questions wrong, too! That's why I stick to so few pairs of shoes. I generally choose the outfit to match the shoes I wish to wear . . . tonight I wore jeans and a turtleneck to the concert because I wanted to wear my loafers. ******* "Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions. ~Dalai Lama | |||
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Somehow, CW, I suspect you have this big closet where you are hiding dozens of pairs of shoes.  Nathan Bierma, the columnist who writes the column that stimulated me to start this thread, writes me by e-mail that his column can be received by e-mail if you sign up here: www.nbierma.com/language/column/email It is a great column, and I highly recommend it. | |||
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Actually, when Kalleh picked me up she said, "I'll bet you're hungry after that long flight..." Well, shortage of food is not one of the typical problems of air travel and I had eaten more than enough. So, assuming that Kalleh was speaking English, I said "No". It did take me a while to realise that Kalleh was speaking woman and, once I realised that we went and had a Chicago snack (about enough to feed Liberia for a week). Richard English | |||
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I see what you mean, Kalleh, but it sounds awkward to me. The just doesn't make any difference in deciding whether to use me or I. The direct object should be me, with one very important exception. If the verb is form of to be, then you use I. According to your site it's because to be is a linking verb, equating the two words, in this case that and I. You're essentially saying that is I, which I guess is technically correct, but it doesn't sound right to me. That's part of the It is I versus It is me debate. Until his death in 2003, James HiDuke , of the Department of English at the University of Northern Iowa, answered grammar questions on his Dr. Grammar site. Here's an excerpt :
The site is easily searchable. Just go to the site and click on the topic you're interested in. One of my pet peeves is addressed under Me, Myself, or I? By the way, you'll notice in the quote he used the word stiffier. I don't whether that was his mistake or a typo in the book. TinmanThis message has been edited. Last edited by: tinman, | |||
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Re. the 'Are you hungry?' question. I would probably say something similar when picking up a guest, as looking out for the guest's needs first is the polite thing for a host to do, but where I seem to differ from Kalleh is that if I got the answer 'No', I'd just say 'Well I am - do you mind if we stop for something to eat?'. Likewise, if I ask someone for an opinion on two items of clothing (or whatever) that I can't make a decision on, it's because I want an opinion - or I wouldn't ask. Sometimes I'll go with what the askee says as I genuinely couldn't decide; other times it'll help cement a decision that was forming in my mind but that I wasn't sure about or even fully aware of. (What I mean by this is that at times I've felt genuinely indecisive about something, asked someone else and been disappointed by their choice, finding myself wishing they'd picked the other one. That helps me realise I did have a preference after all, so I go with that, now it's come into my consciousness. Either way, the other person has helped me make the decision.) | |||
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It's fun coming back after a few days away because old threads have developed in new directions and new threads have started and already developed. I like this thread alot. When I first met my wife she would often ask 'Do you love me?' in a very coy way and being the niave sap I am I would always answer in the affermative. After a while I realised that this was a very leading question because it invariably led to her wanting something and me parting with cash. These days she rarely bothers to ask the question because she knows I am wise to it and will simply answer 'No!', thus preventing her from carrying on. I've now been married for a number of years and I'm beginning to understand a LITTLE more about women and I have already started passing on that knowledge to my own boys. 1) Always let them believe that you think they will understand things like engines even if you know they don't because they appreciate the fact that you treat them like an equal in stereotypically male areas. 2) If you haven't seen a woman for a little while it is always wise to start the conversation with either 'Have you lost some weight?' or 'Have you had your hair done?' These are always safe bets as you can use them without even bothering to look at her and be sure of a good response. In my experience women always want to lose a little weight and always feel special if you notice they've had their hair done. It makes no difference if they haven't because then they will simply be pleased that you think they look so good that the hair could have been done by a professional. 3) Obviously, if you are asked the question 'Does my backside look big in this?' the answer is always 'No'. A similar principle holds if she wants your opinion on an outfit she's trying on. Whatever it is, just say she looks fantastic. I know that there will be some women (such as Cat) who claim that they ask because they really want to know but my own experience is that in reality they DON'T want to know the truth even if they think they do. My own wife always says she wants me to be truthful but in the past, when I have been truthful, it has never gone down well. The trick is to not be too enthusiastic because then they can't hide the fact that they know you are just saying it for a quiet life. I started coaching my youngest on this last year when he was 9 and he was so enthusiastic about how lovely his cousin looked she immediately knew he was lying. I have since encouraged him to be a little more conservative in his approach and he is coming on nicely. 4) If she really looks awful and you need to save her you always need to be very tactful and NEVER say the outfit doesn't look good on her even if it's the most awful thing you've ever seen. Better to suggest an alternative for some vaguely plausible reason and if she asks if you really hate her original choice, say something like, 'Not at all darling, you look beautiful in it, it's just that....' I could go on and on but the men will probably know exactly what I'm talking about already and the ladies will think I'm talking nonsense even though, deep down, they'll know that it's true. | |||
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Hmmm, there is a little parallel play going on here with the rest of the conversation, and then my side conversation with Tinman about "It could be just I." Tinman, Shu thinks it sounds awkward too, but we both agree that the Chicago Manual of Style, at least, says that is the correct way of saying it. So, while it may sound wrong to you, it isn't technically wrong. Yet, next time to avoid all confusion, I will will say, "It could just be me." [Watch someone else say that I should have said "I!" ]Yes, I agree, Asa, that Cat's comments make a lot of sense. Yet, many of neveu's comments about his wife I could identify with too. For example, if I ask my husband what he wants for dinner, I usually have something in mind. I will say, though, that when I ask my husband how this pin looks with this or this top with these pants, he is always excrutiatingly honest...and I like that. Doad, he would tell me if my "back side" looked big in something, and I'd quickly take it off! Often in the morning I will change after asking my husband's opinion of an outfit. So, at least that part of me is different! | |||
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A plumber who lived up in Skye Was plumbing his girl on the sly. Said the girl, "Stop your plumbing == There's somebody coming." Said the plumber, still plumbing, "It's I." | |||
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Such a ridiculous amount of thread. My wife once worked as a auto mechanic. I have shown very little interest in internal combustion engines. Whenever my wife has asked me if I love her, and I have answered in the affirmative, it has never involved an exchange of money. I can only assume that the institution of marriage in the UK is substantially different from the one in the US. For some reason I am reminded of Andy Capp. | |||
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I love breaking stereotypes: I'm a loud, boisterous librarian. My husband takes 3 times as long to get ready when we go out as I do. I am the one who does the books, pays the bills for the household. I am more likely to ask direct questions and give direct answers. My husband is more sentimental, generally, and more sensitive about his looks. He does all the shopping and cooking. Say what you will, and I know that sometimes those stereotypes can help you feel like you know someone quickly . . . but I think the most marvelous thing about people is that we are all unique. Vive la difference! ******* "Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions. ~Dalai Lama | |||
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Jheem, I was talking very much tongue-in-cheek. I don't think marraige is that different in the 2 countries but the sense of humour can be. | |||
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I don't think marraige is that different in the 2 countries but the sense of humour can be. Was somebody being serious in this thread? I think the US and the UK are divided more by humor than by language. | |||
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On the woman-speak matter, all men know that conversing with a woman can be significantly more hazardous at certain times of the month. I offer you this set of guidelines
Safer: Can I help you with dinner? Safest: Where would you like to go for dinner? Ultra-safe: Have some chocolate. DANGEROUS: Are you wearing that? Safer: Wow, you look good in brown. Safest: WOW! Look at you! Ultra-safe: Have some chocolate. DANGEROUS: What are you so worked up about? Safer: Could we be overreacting? Safest: Here's my paycheck. Ultra-safe: Have some chocolate. DANGEROUS: Should you be eating that? Safer: You know, there are a lot of apples left. Safest: Can I get you a glass of wine with that? Ultra-safe: Have some chocolate. DANGEROUS: What did you do all day? Safer: I hope you didn't over-do it today. Safest: I've always loved you in that robe! Ultra-safe: Have some more chocolate! | |||
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There was a young plumber of Leigh Who was plumbing a girl by the sea. She said, "Stop your plumbing, There's somebody coming!" Said the plumber, still plumbing, "It's me." Il y avait un plombier, Francois, Qui plombait sa femme dans le Bois. Dit-elle, "Arretez! J'entends quelqu'un venait." Dit le plombier, en plombant, "C'est moi." Es giebt ein Arbeiter von Tinz, Er schlaeft mit ein Maedel von Linz. Sie sagt, "Halt sein' plummen, Ich hoere Mann kommen." "Jacht, jacht," sagt der Plummer. "Ich binz." (I believe there's a Latin version out there, too.) | |||
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I doubt that, jheem. There surely was some tongue in cheek discussion here, and for sure the Brits have a different sense of humor than we do in many ways. We have discussed that often here. What interests me about this thread is that it started with the premise that Brits make more indirect requests than the Spanish do, yet our discussion quickly went to women making more indirect requests than men do. The article discussed a cultural difference with this, though it seems that there could be a gender difference too. However, I don't know. | |||
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An interesting aspect of Richard's obsevation: The Englishman's version ends with a question-mark, and presumably it is spoken with a rising inflection at the end, the inflection of a question. But interestingly, in fact it is grammatically not a question; it is a simple declarative statement. How extremely indirect! | ||
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I doubt that As is your right, though you're deluding yourself. This alleged humor is masking a deep-seated fear and hatred of the other.This message has been edited. Last edited by: jheem, | |||
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Well, the Woman/English dictionary I know states that the correct answer to the question "Which shoes do you think I should wear?" is, "You look lovely in either colour". The dictionary's explanatory note is that the question "Which shoes do you think I should wear?" actually means, "Do I look OK?" The woman is seeking affirmation of her looks, not asking about what she should wear. She knows very well what she should wear - why else has she just spent 45 minutes over a 5-minute job? When a man asks the question, "Which tie should I wear?" (He wouldn't even think to ask about something as unimportant as shoes) he wants to know which tie goes vaguely with the shirt he's selected (which choice is usually deteremined by the location of the shirt in the wardrobe). His only reason for needing to know the answer, is to be sure that, when he arrives at his destination and removes his overcoat, he doesn't hear the incredulous question from his partner, "...You're not going to wear THAT tie with THAT shirt, are you...?" Richard English | |||
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Well, that's accurate enough, for me: my response to the question "Why are you wearing that? is always "Because it was on top". | |||
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I don't quite follow this, are you suggesting that British men have a deep seated fear and hatred of women? I hope not but if you are you are certainly wrong. Frankly I prefer the company of women to men and I don't mean physically here (though that too of course )The first person I ever talked to online was an American girl and we chatted regularly. We quickly became friends but it was perfectly clear very early on that she simply didn't understand when I was joking and it did lead to a few problems | |||
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I don't quite follow this, are you suggesting that British men have a deep seated fear and hatred of women? I was just illustrating the point that one humorous national stereotype is as good as another. I see that my attempt at British-style humor did not go over as well as I'd wished. Sorry about that. From now on I'll stick to word-related topics, if I can. | |||
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LMAO, Don't worry about it Jheem, I wasn't expecting an attempt at British humour so you caught me off guard. By all means continue to practice and you will improve while I try not to take you so literally and make an 'ass' out of myself (note the use of the American word there). | |||
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El plomero de españa plomó, Y su amante habló; Dijo en broma, "Alguien se asoma." Y él dijo, plomando, "Soy yo." | |||
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There's a series on the Beeb right now, entitled "He said, she said", which as all about the difference between Women and English. One interesting observation that two women standing in a queue (line) for a bus will within ten minutes, have found out all about each others lives, relatives and personal habits. Two men sitting next to one another for ten years might not have even found out each other's marital status. Maybe an exaggeration, but one that has more than a shred of truth. Richard English | |||
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Same here, Doad, including a few former girlfriends. (Yes, Sunflower knows!) Women in general seem more apt to talk about ideas and ideals than men, and that interests me much more than talking about baseball scores or cars. | ||
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And...I have always preferred the company of men. I get so sick at gatherings of talking about kids and diapers and Prada bags and having 60 pair of shoes (that's why I like CW!). I often find men will talk about more intellectual subjects like business or politics. However, sometimes that conversation, as well, deteriorates to sports and women's asses. | |||
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I certainly take your point Kalleh, it is probably fair to say that both sexes can talk an incredible amount of rubbish at times. Perhaps the difference here is tied in to the natural attraction to the opposite sex. As I said, I enjoy being with women yet my wife complains that she hates working with other women because they 'bitch' too much. | |||
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Lol - good job I know you're joking Doad, or I'd be on the next Northbound train with my self-refuting-argument-destroying hammer of doom! (Note I said hammer and not rolling pin, as I possess the former but not the latter). Joking aside, I really, really hate it when people expect you to be psychic. I had an ex who did that all the time, and it stressed me out no end. I try to be as honest as I can with my friends and people in general, and I prefer others to be the same with me. Honesty doesn't have to be brutal - you can be tactful AND truthful (that's the beauty of language!). I'm closest to those of my friends who respect honesty as much as I do - we always know where we stand with each other and have more mutual respect, and that's really important to me, as I hate not knowing where I stand with someone or feeling like I can't quite trust them. I lose trust very quickly in people who don't say what they mean, and / or expect you to guess the true meaning of what they do say. If I ask for an opinion on what I'm wearing, it's because I want one. I don't want to be told 'you look awful' because that's rude, spiteful and shows a chronic lack of even the most elementary communication skills, but if I really don't look good, I want to be told - tactfully. I reserve the right not to agree with an opinion, but I don't want to hear anything bland or patronising - a 'hedging your bets' response. RE, if I were to hear 'you look lovely in either colour' I'd smile (genuinely!) at the old charm, say thank you, then: 'no, really - which pair do you think goes best?'. If I got the same cop-out response, I'd start to get annoyed. Of course, that's all academic as most of my shoes / boots are black anyway  .This message has been edited. Last edited by: Cat, | |||
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And how many pairs do you have? ******* "Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions. ~Dalai Lama | |||
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Good question, CW. I am dying to know, too! | |||
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