Neat place you lot got here.

I enjoy words as much as the next verbivore, and I wanted to get your take on the use of grandiloquent English in everyday life.

Put it to you like this, my experience has partially been that the use of words that step outside colloquial vocabulary are looked down upon and subtly shunned. Nothing explicit ever gets said about their use, but the message that gets dropped is that "I don't understand that, that's bad and you shouldn't do that."

Thing is, the trouble comes in that actually learning this stuff (at least for me) requires in-vivo use and practice of the words. Presumably, you can see the trouble in that it can become trying at times to balance social acceptance with vocab development.

And of course, you hear the usual stuff: 1) Know your audience, use these words only with those that are ok with it (problem being that they seem to be few and far between), 2) Don't have to use them all the time (I don't really; it seems as if ANY use is somehow a bad thing). At any rate, I don't find it particularly perturbing or troublesome, but more sort of find myself wondering how learning and edification is somehow a bad or wrong thing. Not sure what to think about that.

What've been your experiences with this type of thing, if any? Not particularly looking for advice, as I've heard it all, just curious what everyone else thinks about this mess. Let's hear it.

T

Welcome, Timbo! From your first post, it looks like you'll fit in well here. Feel free to dive in and add your opinions to the comments in the other threads.

I'm at work and just about to go out to lunch, so I'll give a proper reply to the points you raise when I get back (assuming no-one dumps a whole pile of work on me, that is!).

Hello Timbo,

Welcome to our site; I am sure you'll enjoy yourself here. So far as your question is concerned, I am sure that there are many who share your experiences, if not your concerns.

Inevitably those who are more intelligent and better educated will have a larger vocabulary on which to draw and this can cause problems when you are communicating, vocally or in writing, with those with a lesser command of language. Where is creates problems is where your audience does not understand you and feels stupid and, ss is usually the case when one feels stupid, one also feels embarrassed. Typically, to rationalise the reasons for our feelings we will try to shift blame onto another - generally the person whose language we do not understand. Thus there will be accusations that the speaker is "snobbish", or trying to be "clever", and similar jibes.

But in truth, it should be the task of the originator of the communication to make sure that his or her language is accessible to the recipient; it should not be the recipient's job to try to make sense of some arcane or abstruse word or expression. Of course, I can use words like "arcane" and "abstruse" on this site since all who post here have a good command of English - but in a normal pub conversation I would be better advised to use more common - even if less precise - terminology.

So in a long answer to a short question, I would say, yes, know your audience and use appropriate language. After all, communication of any kind is about exchanging thoughts and ideas, and the more effectively it does so, the better for all concerned. And insofar as your comment about there being too few "simple" words - basic English manages to communicate very effectively with fewer than 1000 words http://ogden.basic-english.org/

Incidentally, I read recently that, in England, the average reading age is around 13 - which is the level at which the writing in The Sun is pitched. If you're not from the UK then you won't know The Sun - but it's our most popular newspaper and it concentrates more on the antics of so-called celebrities (and their bodily parts) than it does on such mundane matters as the economy and the state of the world.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard English:
Hello Timbo,
- but in a normal pub conversation I would be better advised to use more common .

I certainly wouldn't be spending my time drinking with people who didn't understand words such as "arcane" and "abtruse".

quote:

I certainly wouldn't be spending my time drinking with people who didn't understand words such as "arcane" and "abtruse". Smile

You might not choose to go out with them - but who know whom you might meet. Chance meetings and conversations is one of the great things about pubs, after all.

I'm sure that most (if not all) of Wordcraft's members are with you in a common enjoyment of words, Timbo. That is the purpose of the forum, after all. In particular, I'd guess, we enjoy the more arcane and sesquipedalian words the more. To some degree, in using them, we are showing off our knowledge of English.

As you say, it is important to know your audience. I work in education, so most of the people around me have perhaps a better knowledge of English than many. My immediate colleagues are, however, statisticians, most of whom are more mathematician than English expert. My work involves writing to colleagues across the country so I feel able to express my love of words by using fairly 'advanced' English. There can be too much of a good thing, though; over-use of inkhorn and abstruse words can give the impression of being pompous.

If I'm in the local pub discussing football with other drinkers, though, I'll try to avoid anything other than basic English. Richard has beaten me to it in answering most of your post.

By the way, why not edit your profile to show whereabouts in the world you are? It is always useful to know a little of the background of our members. Most of the Wordcrafters across the Pond in America are probably asleep at the moment, but I expect you'll get a few more replies when they start waking up.

I concur with Richard's comment about knowing your audience and using appropriate language. Not only does this grease the wheels of social intercourse, it helps one to develop(depending on the number of disparate social circles one travels in) various group-appropriate lexicons. However, all the goodwill you engender with this system can be undone in an instant by correcting someone's inappropriate use of a word. There's no gain in it.

quote:

all the goodwill you engender with this system can be undone in an instant by correcting someone's inappropriate use of a word.

Very true, Duncan. Nobody likes a smart alec!

I hail from the U.S. I'm an Italian expatriate who is now living (and going to grad school) in Arizona. I think it's true that you naturally begin to develop group-specific interlocutions, yet part of me feels a distinct lack of people in the immediate environment who share my hobby.

This wouldn't be terribly important were it not for the notion that my brain tends to subscribe to the draconian policy of use it or lose it. When there aren't many people around who nurture and join in the fun, supplanted by acres of people who tend to frown upon intelligence, you end up with a mightily stultifying environment.

And part of me wonders how you can communicate to someone else that "I use these words because I wish to learn them, to know them, and use them. I am not meaning to be pretentiously obfuscating or anything of the sort, I merely want to know them for myself," using fewer words than I just did. It seems like that'd make an excellent panacea to the whole business.

Still, though, quite excellent to see that others have had similar experiences.

If you're going to grad school I would have thought you'd have little difficulty finding like minds, even if you are not studying an English-related subject. Unless the only subject studied is something like engineering, perhaps. Even then, many students have an enjoyment of learning for its own sake. If your fellow students aren't suitable, you might try cultivating the faculty.

quote:

Originally posted by arnie:
If you're going to grad school I would have thought you'd have little difficulty finding like minds, even if you are not studying an English-related subject. Unless the only subject studied is something like engineering, perhaps. Even then, many students have an enjoyment of learning for its own sake. If your fellow students aren't suitable, you might try cultivating the faculty.

Heh, I don't think they like it either

Well, not so fast. Look at this thread.

There are certain words, and other constructions, that logophiles continue to use, no matter what their audience is. I don't think that's a bad thing.

You know, it's funky. I got some positive feedback a couple days ago in this very subject. I asked a classmate with internet access to look up the adjective form of palaver for me (I thought it was palaverous, but wanted to make sure). After I heard what she found, she and two other students and I started a discussion about using words.

I asked them the same question I asked above about how do I communicate my intentions with the words in a fairly laconic fashion. One of them immediately fired back and said "It's a hobby. It's just a hobby."

I rather liked this, all things considered. Someone finally got the point, and additionally, it was reassuring to see that words could be used and the world would not fall apart. I dunno, how about these sorts of experiences? Anyone had any?

And part of me wonders how you can communicate to someone else that "I use these words because I wish to learn them, to know them, and use them. I am not meaning to be pretentiously obfuscating or anything of the sort, I merely want to know them for myself," using fewer words than I just did. It seems like that'd make an excellent panacea to the whole business.

Most people don't speak the same way with everybody all the time. There's a concept in linguistics called register which is "a subset of a language used for a particular purpose or in a particular social setting" (link). Highfalutin' words are associated with formal settings and more common ones with more informal ones. This affects phonology (pronunciation), lexical choice (vocabulary), and syntax. Using the wrong register in certain situations may lead to ridicule or other kinds of danger. It's really not that different from the situation in other countries where languages other than English are spoken. In Europe, for example, there's another level of register which involves local dialect. There are certain settings in which I, a foreigner, may speak Kölsch (the Cologne dialect) with strangers (in Bonn or Cologne), e.g., during Karneval, and other times when I should stick with more or less Standard High German, e.g., exchanging money in a bank or buying a railroad ticket. German, just like French, Italian, and most of the other languages in Europe has the extra complication (for anglophones) of two sets of second person pronouns (i.e., the formal and the informal).

So, by all means use it or lose it, just pick your time and locale well. For instances, this would be a perfect place to stretch your vocabulary and extend your clauses. BTW, Timbo, welcome to the board. Hope you stay 'round.

I haven't heard about the concept of register before, but I agree with it. I might call it context.

Once in awhile, though, as I said above, it can be fun to blurt out a word that's not often used. It grabs attention. I remember in a meeting once saying that something was "balderdash." Now maybe to Wordcrafters that's a mundane word, but it wasn't to my colleagues. It lightened the moment, which at the time was needed.

At my Toastmasters meeting last week I used the word "epicaracicy" to a fellow Toastmaster, an ex-journalist and now a writing skills trainer for doctors. He'd not heard of it and I had to translate it into the German for him to understand!

re: epicaricacy

how'd you pronounce it, Richard?

re: these sorts of experiences

during a brainstorming session at work, a colleague was struggling to name a concept for us to consider -- it boiled down to, he wanted us to develop the will to succeed. well, I'd been waiting eons to introduce 'spizzerinctum' into the work environment. I soon gained a certain reputation regarding my predilection for abstruse words. as Kalleh said, it can lighten a moment, but it doesn't always have to be ridiculous; there are 'hard words' that can be useful.. just right for the context.

oh, spizzerinctum was adopted as a catchword for our target program.

quote:

tsuwm wrote: I'd been waiting eons to introduce 'spizzerinctum' into the work environment.

Although I've been told ten million times not to exaggerate, I have literally spent ages and ages looking for an opportunity to work hyperbole into the conversation.

PS: In my dialect everybody pronounces it /sphizzerinctum/ but nobody knows what it means.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jerry thomas,

quote:

'spizzerinctum'

Sounds like the ring of muscle around an opening that disgorges used pizzas.

quote:

how'd you pronounce it, Richard? Smile

With difficulty. Schadenfreude is far easier.

I don't think Schadenfreude is easy at all. Some pronounce the a as in "ache," other pronounce it as in far. Similarly, some pronounce the last e, and some don't.

Epicaricacy is easy: ep-i-CARE-ik-us-ee.

I love spizzerinctum! Maybe that will surpass epicaricacy for me. It sounds a little like a medical word to me (think rectum ). Tsuwm, do you know anything about the background of that word?

background? sure..

spizzerinctum can be found in W3 (but not OED).
here's what W3 has:
Etymology: U.S. dialect spizarinctum - cash, specie, probably irregular from English specie
: the will to succeed : VIM, ENERGY, AMBITION

edit: epicaricacy - /EP i kar IK i see/ .. (-8

This message has been edited. Last edited by: tsuwm,

Hello, Timbo!

A question regarding your use of "draconian:" You describe the "use it or lose it" policy as Draconian, but I don't understand how this is so. Elucidate, please!

Tsuwm's mentioning waiting to introduce an arcane word reminds me of an experience I had in a psychology class some years ago: The professor was searching for the word, "tautology, but couldn't think of it. I proffered it as being what he sought. "Yes, that's it!," he blurted. "How did you happen to remember such an unusual word?" I replied that I simply remembered it as somewhat akin to "pleonasm." He had a great laugh; the class sat silently wondering what was so funny.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
Epicaricacy is easy: ep-i-CARE-ik-us-ee.

Oops. I've been pronouncing it ep-i-CAR-ik-us-ee, with secondary stress on the last syllable.

quote:

'spizzerinctum'

Sounds like the ring of muscle around an opening that disgorges used pizzas.

Sounds to me like a word made up by a rapper. . . akin to "fer shizzle".

quote:

spizarinctum

here's a good discussion of the spiz word for all you doubters. (I don't think Quinion will get around to it real soon, it being UScentric.)

spizzerinctum

A funny passage using the word (link).

quote:

Originally posted by jerry thomas:

Although I've been told ten million times not to exaggerate, I have literally spent ages and ages looking for an opportunity to work hyperbole into the conversation.

I can distinctly remember the day, well back in the previous century, when I first heard the word hyperbole. The circumstances were such that, to this day, I am unsure whether hyperbole is GOOD or BAD.

Grade nine. Our English Language teacher assigned a short descriptive essay. Among the subject choices was "A Crowded Bus". About a dozen of my classmates were from an outlying village and came to school each day on a very,very small crowded bus. Naturally, every one of them chose that topic and every one of them wrote what I considered to be an absolutely hilarious essay about the absurd conditions on their bus. The teacher, a very smart but very up-tight novice, fresh out of university, WAS NOT AMUSED. She excoriated the guilty dozen for trivializing a serious exercise by engaging in hyperbole. To this day, I'm afraid to use it!

P.S. That teacher came from the same small village as the guilty dozen. Perhaps she knew that the bus wasn't as bad as they said!

quote:

re: these sorts of experiences

then there's the other end of the spectrum, where folks misuse (not even) hard words to an egregious extent. a manager, from the same group which spawned the spiz program, occasionally chastised folks at his group meetings with "That's a mute point." I so wanted to disabuse him of this, but remained moot, doubtlessly to my advantage.

Several of my colleagues (and remember we are all English teachers) insist on pronouncing "pronunciation" as "pronounciation".
I have ventured to correct them a couple of times but met with indifference or hostility.

met with indifference or hostility

This is emblematic. I think you should pronounce it /pɹoʊnænsijejʃən/.

quote:

Originally posted by Asa Lovejoy:
Hello, Timbo!

A question regarding your use of "draconian:" You describe the "use it or lose it" policy as Draconian, but I don't understand how this is so. Elucidate, please!

I'm pleased you caught this! When I wrote this, the tiny, gibbering, lexical gremlin in the back of my head raised an eyebrow and said "ehwot?" Still though, I felt it was proper to use as the "use it or lose it" policy my brain espouses as being the law of the land seems a bit procrustean and moribund.

The draconian bit enters into it because you'd think this mental code of laws wouldn't be so danged infrangible and harsh; that it might be considerably more flexible in how it acquires and assimilates new and fresh vocabulary.

Good catch.