I noticed in one of Robert English's recent postings that he spelled 'realise' with -ise. Now I know that one of the long-standing differences between American and British spelling is that Americans use -ize, while the British -ise. Even my spell-checker knows this and makes this distinction when I set the language to either American or British spelling.
However, I was recently translating a book into English for the English publisher Thames & Hudson and I was surprised when the proofreader had changed all my carefully spelled -ise endings into -ize ones. When I asked some of my British friends, they confirmed that -ize is becoming increasingly standard in Britain. But how standard? Do most publications use it? Is it the younger generation only? Is it used in a specific type of text, say, business articles? I have the sneaky suspicion that this specific change arose to cater to the need for standardiz(/s)ation in international groups that had the word 'organiz(/s)ation' as part of their name. Do you think this is a well-founded suspicion?
Indeed, in Australia too! I myself have come to vacillate over 's' and 'z' lately. 'Realise' doesn't draw much hesitation from my ring finger, but 'analyse' does, and I'm at odds to explain why. If I had to guess, I'd discount my mostly English lessons and literature, and highlight more recent affairs -- the business context -- in which my influence is largely American. My tactile trend is increasingly in favour of 'z', though consciously I object.
"Ize" is the older spelling but "ise" has been popular in UK English for many years. Either is acceptable when the preceding vowel sound is an actual vowel. If it's a "y" then the z ending is not acceptable at present.
So "standardise" or "standardize" are both OK in UK English. However, "analyze" is not - it has to be "analyse".
Richard English
Posts: 8038 | Location: Partridge Green, West Sussex, UK
-ize was widely used about 300 years ago, then -ise came (back?) in in Britain later.
Around 1900 Oxford and Fowler brought -ize back into vogue, and almost all serious book publishers in Britain now use -ize. However, it never took off in popular use, and newspapers and individuals almost all use -ise.
In Australia the official style manual says to use -ise, and a Penguin (say) printed there of an Australian author will also use -ise, whereas Penguin in UK will use -ize.
Most people in Britain think of -ize as an Americanism, and aren't aware that it's the standard book spelling.
Do Thames and Hudson use the Oxford Guide to Style by any chance? I believe that it likes such words to be standardised with an -ize ending. All publishers will use a style guide to clarify such matters; either one they've produced themselves or one written by another party.
So long as an author is consistent, and doesn't use both spellings in the same publication, British English allows either; from my own impressions, not based on actual data, I'd say that the -ise ending is just as common as it always was.
Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
The Americans just didn't abandon it. The original Greek ending was -ize. Same with our saying gotten instead of got. We're not the innovators in this case, but the conservative ones.
It's similar to the American use of 'fall', whereas the British say 'autumn'. Fall (or 'Harvest') was used originally in Britain, but was gradually replaced by autumn, beginning in the sixteenth century.
Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Interesting, arnie. Etymology.com says that "harvest" was the English term and that in the 16th century "autumn" replaced it. There was no mention of "fall," though.
"Autumn" is an interesting word. It is of Etruscan origin. Can anyone tell me about the Etruscan origin? Is that a common origin for our words?
Can anyone tell me about the Etruscan origin? Is that a common origin for our words?
The Etruscans spoke am non-Indo-European language and introduced many cultural concepts and even their (Greek-derived) alphabet to the Romans. Autumnus 'fall' and Vertumnus 'Etruscan god of the seasons, or changing year' are two Latin words that are probably of Etruscan origin. Haruspex 'soothsayer, diviner' and catamite, the Etruscan form of Ganymedes are also Etruscan.
Originally posted by arnie: Do Thames and Hudson use the Oxford Guide to Style by any chance?
The T & H editor didn't tell me which style guide she uses, but The Oxford Guide seems probable. You're right, arnie, that she should have given me some guidelines before I translated the text. By the way, if you're interested in looking at the book next time you're in a bookstore, it's called At Home in Greece and if you look real hard with a magnifying glass on the last page, you'll see my name in the tiniest font possible next to "Translated from the Greek by"
Around 1900 Oxford and Fowler brought -ize back into vogue, and almost all serious book publishers in Britain now use -ize. However, it never took off in popular use, and newspapers and individuals almost all use -ise.
Most people in Britain think of -ize as an Americanism, and aren't aware that it's the standard book spelling.
I think it's funny that we carry on after a 3-year hiatus, without even missing a heartbeat.
I don't know if you're talking about a particular word or not, but I do have access to the OED. One word that was discussed here was "realize" and "realise." The online OED shows the first citations, starting in 1611, as being "realize." In 1750 the first "realise" was cited, and then it became a lot more common after about 1775.
I thought this an interesting comment:
quote:
3. a. To conceive, or think of, as real; to apprehend with the clearness or detail of reality; to understand or grasp clearly; to become aware of the presence of (a person). In early use chiefly American, and frequently condemned as such by English writers about the middle of the 19th c.
In other words, whenever they came across an English person using the word they felt it was an Americanism, and disliked it on principle as sullying the purity of English. Much like the French Adademy still try to do now with the French language.
Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Whatever became of the person who started this thread?
Oh, I don't know, Asa. She was so great here, too. I'll see if we have any contact information.
Interesting links, z. I realized that I should have gone to "ize" in the OED, instead of choosing "realize." The OED has a nice discussion of "ize," including that 1591 citation.
It really is funny the way people got (and get) so rankled over the use of words, coinages, etc. According to z's MWDEU link, words like "demoralize," "jeopardize," and "Americanize" upset critics. That's similar to those who condemn the meaning of realize as "to conceive, or think of, as real."
Hey there everybody! I'm still alive and kicking! Been tremendously busy, as usual, teaching, translating, chasing after teenage kids (that lattter is more exhausting than digging ditches,I can tell ya). Now that the academic year is ending, I will try to log on more often. Kisses to all the oldies that remember me, Kallleh, Asa, Richard, djz, et al.
How delightful to see you here, Muse! We often think of you, especially when we revive threads and see some of your great posts. I still remember when you introduced me to Quinion and Word Detective. I think it was that post that stimulated our starting our Links for Linguaphiles forum.
Greek καλημερα (kalēmera) 'good morning, day' < καλη 'good' + μερα 'day'; καλεσπερα (kalespera) 'good evening' upon meeting < καλη 'good' + εσπερα 'evening'; καληνυχτα (kalēnukhta) 'good night' in departure. Italian calamaro 'squid' < Late Latin calamarius 'pen-case' < calamus 'pen, reed' < Greek καλαμος (kalamos) 'reed'. English squid etymology unknown; cuttlefish < Old English cudele (link) 'squid, cuttlefish' + fish. (The squyid is not a fish, but a mollusk and cephalopod.
I can barely manage to provide my own transliteration, let alone the Greek orthography! But "calimera", "calispera" or "calinichta" are about as near to a phonetic rendition as I can manage. I am far better at mimicry than I am at philological history but I have noted that some places in Greece seem to pronounce the expressions "cali" and some "cala" or "calu". More than that I cannot say as I know only a few words of the language.
I don't know about the Italian, but calamares is surely the Spanish for squid.
Richard English
Posts: 8038 | Location: Partridge Green, West Sussex, UK
Kalimera kalamaria! (or Good morning to all you squid!)
We say kalamari here in Greece, but we usually use the diminutive 'kalamarakia' to order a dish of lightly breaded and fried tiny squid at the taverna. They are scrumptious!
So nice to see you all!
quote:
I have noted that some places in Greece seem to pronounce the expressions "cali" and some "cala" or "calu".
Though pronunciations differ all over Greece for many words and sounds (the Cretans pronounce 'k' as 'ts', for instance), that particular difference you mentioned is not something I've noticed, Richard.
I can't say exactly where I've heard what as it goes back years now. But I've been to the Greek mainland, many of the islands from Rhodes to Corfu, plus Crete and recently Cyprus. But I am inclined to the view that "cali" seems to be the most common - and presumably the most correct.
Richard English
Posts: 8038 | Location: Partridge Green, West Sussex, UK
