OK - we've talked about shoes quite a few times, but I have to bring it up again.

I recently heard someone say

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Your opinion may be different depending on what kind of shoes you wear to work.

This phrase "the shoes you wear to work" was being used to delineate between professional and para-professional and support staff. I found it very interesting. We all understood immediately what she meant.

Have any of you heard this used?

What other clothing references do we use to describe a person's profession or trade? I have thought of these:

He will have to wear two hats

blue collar/white collar

*******
"Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions.
~Dalai Lama

The hat reference? Yes. Pretty common here too.
The collar reference. Not something we'd use much but yes I'm familiar with it.
Shoes? Never heard that before.

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Originally posted by Caterwauller: What other clothing references do we use to describe a person's profession or trade? I have thought of ...blue collar/white collar

In the same vein is pink collar, a degrading term for "women's work" in the office. Wonder when we started seeing that one?

And then there's the white shoe lawyer. Well, if the shoe fits ...

"Wearing your collar backwards" sometimes suggests a priest/minister.

While it's not exactly a profession (I hope!) I've heard of "wife-beater" shirts. Apparently Budweiser drinkers wear them along with NASCAR caps.

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This phrase "the shoes you wear to work" was being used to delineate between professional and para-professional and support staff. I found it very interesting. We all understood immediately what she meant.

I haven't heard it, but I know that nurses have finally rebelled about wearing those ugly, white oxfords, at least in the U.S. Finally, they wear athletic shoes when they care for patients in hospitals. It's about time! There are still those stodgy nurses out there who look down their noses at that. They are probably the same ones who miss wearing those ugly nursing caps!

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They are probably the same ones who miss wearing those ugly nursing caps!

I always understood that the caps were there to keep a nurse's hair tidy.

And I think the ones we have in the UK are rather fetching. After all, I married a girl who wore one!

I think they were meant to identify nurses, but I think they make nurses look frivolous and ridiculous. I also wore one when I first graduated. I worked with kidney transplant patients, and we had to gown and cap before going into any patient room. That meant, take off nurse cap, put on surgical hat, gown, go into room, care for patient, come out of room, take off surgical hat and gown, and put on nursing cap with bobby pins. It was the biggest hassle, and during busy times, we just didn't have time! I think I was one of the first nurses to not wear my cap. I probably only wore it for a few days, and then I rebelled.

BTW, the male nurses, of course, didn't have to wear it. You call it "fetching;" I call it sexist. I think it probably was responsible for the public's view (in movies, etc.) of nurses being sex objects.

[Kalleh now steps off her soapbox! ]

Fetching? Sure! "hey, nurse, go fetch this, go fetch that, go fetch ....."

Kalleh, men don't look at nurses and say, "Hey a nurse, now there's a sex object". On a whole, men are much more egalitarian than that, and we understand equality very deeply. What we would say is, "Hey a woman, now there's a sex object". : )

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of nurses being sex objects.

Actually, leaving aside whether it be nurses, air hostesses, cheerleaders or any other of the many kinds of female dress that form the subject of men's fantasies - why do we talk about "sex objects" as term of derision?

It is quite normal for men and women to lust after one another to a greater or lesser extent - that's how nature created us to ensure that we reproduce. If we didn't have sexual desire then the human race would die out.

But when men lust after a woman, or type of woman, then the accusation is that they are treating them as "sex objects" (even though that is surely quite natural). But when women lust after a man, or men, in a similar way (as I am quite sure they do) that same accusation would be considered absurd.

And surely, if women didn't want men to look at them with some degree of desire, they wouldn't dress in an attractive, and often provocative, manner, would they? They could make sure that they were dressed (as is sometimes the case in extreme Muslim societies) so that no part of their bodies could be seen.

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Actually, leaving aside whether it be nurses, air hostesses, cheerleaders

Don't show this comment to your nurse wife! Nurses are being linked to "air hostesses" and "cheerleaders?" Sheesh!

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But when women lust after a man, or men, in a similar way (as I am quite sure they do) that same accusation would be considered absurd.

Perhaps that's the fault of men, and not women. Women want to be considered interesting, personable, engaging, as well as sexy. When men lust for them, only the latter is considered, and the woman finds that shallow and superficial. If men don't care, then that's their problem. Frankly, I think they do care. Women don't tend to merely look at the sexuality of men.

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And surely, if women didn't want men to look at them with some degree of desire, they wouldn't dress in an attractive, and often provocative, manner, would they?

This of course is precisely the argument that is sometimes used when a woman is raped; that is, "she asked for it." That is simply ridiculous. The fact is, except for a cleavage or a short, tight skirt, men often don't even observe what most women are wearing or how their hair has changed. My colleague and I were talking about this recently. There is one exception...gay men. Oftentimes they will recognize a new outfit, new shoes, or when hair has been highlighted before our women friends do.

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Women want to be considered interesting, personable, engaging, as well as sexy. When men lust for them, only the latter is considered, and the woman finds that shallow and superficial.

Maybe I'm weird ( Sunflower, no fair revealing secrets!) but intelligence is one helluva turn-on for me! I'll take wits over tits any day!

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men often don't even observe what most women are wearing or how their hair has changed. There is one exception...gay men.

What does a man's being cheerful have to do with it? And if grumpy men don't recognize that there's been a change, it's because it's not important to them. However, our NOT noticing these trivialities leads to your changing your mood for the worse, and becoming grumpy yourselves, so maybe you should just hang out with those cheerful men who DO notice!

Geez, Asa, you really had me going! I was searching back through my last post, looking for my use of the word "cheerful!" Then I remembered your stance on the word "gay!"

Remember, "it's not the teat, it's the tumidity".

As the Flintstones theme says, "...we'll have a gay old time!" And I had one teasing you!

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Women don't tend to merely look at the sexuality of men.

Speak for yourself, Kalleh!

I am enjoying reading this discussion of careers and sexuality. It's very interesting to me that so many men think Librarians (along with the aforementioned nurses, airline hostesses, cheerleaders) are sexy. I think the hidden truth might be (as Asa eloquently said) that men admire women who have brains and who know how to use them. I also think that men yearn for women who know how to serve, nurture, coddle them.

Librarians have long been known to be women who wear practical shoes. Thank goodness we never had to wear silly caps! I don't think it was about keeping hair in place as much as marking their station in life (for nurses). Those caps don't do much for keeping anything in place! Didn't you hear Kalleh say they had to hold them on with bobby pins? (I know that's true because I had a nurses costume as a child. I wore it all the time, and said I wanted to be a nurse until my sister pointed out that modern nurses don't wear capes. There just aren't any good jobs anymore that require capes.)

And Asa? It's no secret that you're weird. We all know it and love you for it.

[guffawing at Seanahan's comment.]

Kalleh says, "the public's view of nurses being sex objects."
That's my view, dear spouse of mine, and apparently Richard's as well.

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[guffawing at Seanahan's comment.]

Oh yes, I loved it, too! Excellent!

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Originally posted by Asa Lovejoy:

Maybe I'm weird ( Sunflower, no fair revealing secrets!) but intelligence is one helluva turn-on for me! I'll take wits over tits any day!

No comment!

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but intelligence is one helluva turn-on for me! I'll take wits over tits any day!

I agree, Asa, for me, too. I thought long and hard before I posted, "Women want to be considered interesting, personable, engaging, as well as sexy." The reason I didn't add "intelligent" was because I thought that not all people on earth can have more than normal intelligence, right? However, all people can be "interesting," even if their IQ isn't in the range of being more intelligent than normal.

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Speak for yourself, Kalleh!

Surely women like men who are sexy, I agree with you CW. I just don't think that's all we consider. I don't think it's all that most men consider, either, but some do...and I think that percentage is higher than the "some" women who only consider sexiness when choosing a man.

Yes, Sean...great comment!

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whether it be nurses, air hostesses, cheerleaders

Lest there be any misunderstanding, let me say that I simply mentioned these three kinds of woman as examples. I am quite sure that just about any woman will attract certain men but it is an observation that some tend to be more popular than others. Go into any sex-shop (yes, I have - there's one in most towns in England, including Reigate!) and look at the kinds of clothes sold for dressing up and you'll certainly see nurses' uniforms along with French maids' dresses and other kinds.

I do not myself find dressing up very sexy but, judging by the range of disguises available, many people do.

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Originally posted by Richard English:
Go into any sex-shop (yes, I have - there's one in most towns in England, including Reigate!) and look at the kinds of clothes sold for dressing up and you'll certainly see nurses' uniforms along with French maids' dresses and other kinds.

I do not myself find dressing up very sexy but, judging by the range of disguises available, many people do.

Interesting, very interesting. Don't sex shops normally have blanked out windows requiring you to enter the premises to see what's on offer? Have you made an extensive study.

I've been in one, and it wasn't the costumes that caught my eye.

Asa on Sunflower's computer

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Go into any sex-shop (yes, I have - there's one in most towns in England, including Reigate!) and look at the kinds of clothes sold for dressing up and you'll certainly see nurses' uniforms along with French maids' dresses and other kinds.

I've been in one, and I haven't seen nurse's or maid's outfits. I wonder if this is a UK/US difference. If so, perhaps I will come to our Wordcrafter Convention, dressed in my nurse's unform!

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perhaps I will come to our Wordcrafter Convention, dressed in my nurse's unform!

What are you expecting to go on at the convention, Kalleh?

What happens at the other conventions you attend? Shu, did you know about this?

There ARE sex shops here in the US that cater to those who enjoy role-playing, bondage, sado-masochism, and plain 0ld whatever it takes to make one or one's partner feel GOOOOOOOD! Maybe some of you haven't been to the right ones!

Asa on Sunflower's computer

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Originally posted by Richard English:
Go into any sex-shop ... and you'll certainly see ...

Richard, I'm unwilling to take this on faith. This calls for serious empirical research! Perhaps when I visit for our gathering next year?

I think we'll have to ask Bob to do some research as we will be staying in his neck of the woods.

Incidentally, the hotel has now confirmed that it's holding rooms for us.

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There ARE sex shops here in the US that cater to those who enjoy role-playing,

Apparently I have been in the wrong kind of sex shop. To be honest, I have only been in one (that I recall). Had I seen a nurse's uniform in there, I think I would made sure that none of them would be able to use any of their little toys again!

What are you expecting to go on at the convention, Kalleh?

You wouldn't believe, Arnie, how absolultely boring my conferences are!

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You wouldn't believe, Arnie, how absolultely boring my conferences are!

My industry (travel) has a deserves reputation for running the best conferences in the world. I will try to make sure that the Wordcraft conference meets travel industry standards.

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I will try to make sure that the Wordcraft conference meets travel industry standards.

And do you normally tour local sex shops as part of your conferences? I am used to touring local libraries at my own professional conferences . . .

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Originally posted by Asa Lovejoy:
Maybe I'm weird, but intelligence is one helluva turn-on for me!

Sunflower, that's a helluva compliment you got there. You're a lucky gal!

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And do you normally tour local sex shops as part of your conferences?

Not necessarily, but remember that the leisure travel industry is about sending people where they want to go to enjoy themselves. Thus visits to local tourist attractions are a usual part of most travel conventions and familiarisation trips.

If a destination is famous for its red-light district (such as Amsterdam) then it is likely that many agents will visit it since some of their customers will want to know about it.

This should bnot be confused with "sex-tourism" which the legitimate trade is very much against and which destinations such as Thailand are now trying to curb.

I accept, of course, that the dividing line between sex-tourism and legitimate adult entertainment is a difficult one to draw but most travel professionals agree that any sex tourism that involves children, or forced prostitution, is definitely forbidden.

Richard speaks of "familiarisation trips". In the red-light context we're speaking of, that's a fine euphemism!

He adds, "Most travel professionals agree that any sex tourism that involves ... forced prostitution is definitely forbidden."

"Forced" prostitution? Could a travel agent properly procure voluntary prostitution for a client? Now that seems a nice ethical distinction, though admittedly I'm intellectually aware of the sort of shady services a concierge can provide.

And if so, I wonder how the agent is in a position to assess just how "voluntarily" the ... uh ... 'servicer' is acting? More "familiarization", perhaps? Are the costs of becoming familiar a tax-deductible business expense for the agent? Enquiring minds want to know!

It gives new meaning to the old saying, "It's such a business doing pleasure with you."

This message has been edited. Last edited by: shufitz,

It should be added that I'm jerking Richard's chain here. The problem is a serious one, and it's extraordinarily difficult to draw workable, practical distinctions.

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It should be added that I'm jerking Richard's chain here.

As one who lives with you, that's a big relief!

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"Forced" prostitution? Could a travel agent properly procure voluntary prostitution for a client?

Although it is frowned on by the UK trade and, if it happens, is carefully hidden, sex-tourism still happens.

When I was in Cuba I was suprised to see a few young Cuban girls in our hotel in the company of middle-aged Italian men. Cubans tend not to get into the tourist hotels as the Cuban Peso is not accepted in them. US dollars and tourist pesos are the only acceptable currencies and these are not easy for the average Cuban to obtain.

Research told me that these girls were contracted by an Italian Tour operator to accompany Italian visitors and, I assume, provide them with all the favours, sexual or otherwise, that they wanted. Whereas one might frown on this practice, the girls themselves seemed to be enjoying the facilities of the hotel and were better dressed than most of the locals. Cuba is a poor country and there are significant shortages for the general populace, so these "escorts" were doing very well by Cuban standards.

Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing I do not feel competent to judge. However, I believe that the choice of job was the girls' (and thus voluntary) and I wouldn't condemn it.

*feels nauseous at the callousness of these sickening men who take advantage of poverty-stricken girls' desperation*. I wonder how many of these...things are married?

Frankly, I'd rather kill myself than prostitute myself. I just hope I never get the chance to prove it.

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I wonder how many of these...things are married?

And, if so, how many of them put their wives at risk for all sorts of diseases. After all, condoms aren't 100% effective in preventing diseases (or pregnancies).

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I'd rather kill myself than prostitute myself.

I remember in a psych class once a young woman said she'd rather lose her arm than be raped. A friend and I sitting next to each other disagreed with her, though now with AIDS & hepatitis C it's much more dangerous to be raped than it used to be.

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Frankly, I'd rather kill myself than prostitute myself. I just hope I never get the chance to prove it.

It's an interesting philosphical point. There was a fascinating programme on TV a few years back about some high-class prostitutes in London, part of which was a panel discussion about the rights an wrongs of the job.

Most of the panel were very anti-prostitution but the girls themselves (it was only about female prostitutes) without exception defended their career choice. Of course, they had chosen the job and were earning huge amounts. One lady had a full time job as (I think) a college lecturer) and she earned more in one night as a high-class "hostess" than she did in a month as a lecturer and, as she said, the work was far easier!

My own take on it is a simple one. Most of us hire out our bodies for the use of others. The parts we hire out will vary - in my case it is usually my hands and mouth, when I write or speak. And of course, my brain is also called into play.

A prostitute hires out (not sells, by the way) other parts of her body and receives payment for their use.

To my mind there is no difference in principle, only in the parts of the body used and it is our own particular civilisation that has chosen to make certain bodily parts "taboo". This is not an invariable taboo and there are civilisations, both now and in the past, where prostitution does not carry the stigma it does in the UK and the USA today. Conversely there are countries where the stigma is even greater.

What I think can be said with certainty is that prostitution has existed since humanity started and, in spite of the efforts of some societies to eliminate it, has never been stopped in any.

And where do I stand on the pro and anti camp? I think prostitution should be legalised. It can then be subject to proper Government controls and the people involved will have the protection of the Law. As it is, many are under the control of the criminals who make fortunes out of forced prostitution. That, not prostitution itself, is the real evil.

I must agree, Richard, that providing people with carnal/sexual pleasure is not intrinsically wrong. Massage therapists provide touch to those in need, and it's perfectly legal, but in the USA, if the provider massages one's genitals, it's illegal. Odd.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: <Asa Lovejoy>,

OK - I know K and C might hunt me down and lynch me . . . but I think I agree with RE and AL on this one. I do have some personal moral problems with prostitution as a profession . . . but I can't really say that I think it should be illegal. It's the same with marijuana. I think leaving things like this in the hands of the criminals makes it all much more dangerous than if we made them legal. Also, I really think that some folks (women and men) go into prostitution willingly, and I really don't see why it's so bad.

I suppose if the adults are consenting, I don't care. However, I do think that in this day and age of fatal diseases, there needs to be strict regulations...and condoms don't do it.

Amsterdam has very specific laws regarding prostitution in an attempt to allay those fears, Kalleh. I'm not sure what they are exactly, but I believe they involve condom usage, regular testing, etc.

Yes, regular testing is the gold standard. Condom usage, of course, is preferable to doing nothing...but as many a pregant woman has found out, they don't always work.