Those of us of a certain age remember the song, "Istanbul," wherein the question is asked, "Why did Constantinople get the works?" I think I know the answer to that one, but what about Bombay in India? Why is it now Mumbai? While we're at it, why is it Iraq, not Persia?

Geographically challenged Asa

This message has been edited. Last edited by: <Asa Lovejoy>,

what about Bombay in India? Why is it now Mumbai?

According to this some called it Mumbai before the Portuguese called it Bombaim. Similar stories with Chennai (Madras) and Kolkata (Calcutta). I think folks should be able to call their city what they want to, but, of course, other folks, speaking other languages, can call the city as they see fit.

While we're at it, why is it Iraq, not Persia?

Persia became Iran. Mesopotamia became Iraq. There is an ancient city in the south of Iraq called Uruk. Coincidence?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: zmježd,

I remember that song! I learned it at my mom's knee (so to speak). Mom is doing fine at 81 and can still sing it all!

And the answer is: "That's nobody's business but the Turks"

The chorus (as i recall) is:
Take me back to Constantinople
Oh you can't go back to Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks.

Constantinople having been named (I believe) for the emporer Constantine.

Bob
p.s. when do I get to start posting limericks?

Welcome to Wordcraft, Bob! Great to see a newbie! If you look in the Written Word forum, find a limerick thread (we have many) and post away!

Zmj, Interesting about Uruk. I've always much preferred Persia to Iran.

[Edit corrected typo of Iraq, instead of Iran.]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,

Kalleh, I misspoke. Persia is modern Iran, not Iraq.

Asa the often befuddled.

You know, I never thought of it, but why and when did "Constantinople" change to "Istanbul"?

Well, the song was popular when my mom was a young adult. Copyright is 1953. According to http://lexicorient.com/e.o/istanbul.htm, the name change took place in 1930. However, the city had been known as Istanbul for about 500 years by the time they made it official. Wikipedia lists some stuff, but I distrust it.

Bob

The Wikipedia article sums up the various and sundry names of Istanbul rather nicely. Long story short it's had a bunch of 'em. My favorite being Byzantium.

quote:

Originally posted by Asa Lovejoy:
why is it Iraq, not Persia?

It is so somehow Arabic Iraq is from its Persian Irak which means lesser Iran (-ak is a diminutive suffix). Even Baghdad is a Persian word which means God-given. Iraq has been part of Persia for a long time. The capital of Parthian and Sasanian empires has been there for about 900 years [1].

I must add that we have always called our land Iran and not Pârs (Persia). The oldest document we have is Avesta where Zoroaster mentions airyanam-vaejah. At the time of the Achaemenian dynasty (550-330 BCE), the Greeks called the country Persis which is the Greek name for Pars (Fars), the provincal region where the Achaemenian dynasty was founded and Achaemenian kings came from; this passed into Latin and became Persia. BUT we ourselves called the country Aryanam at the time of Achaemenians. It became Ērān early at Sassanid dynasty (224–651 CE) and finally Irān.

So the words Ir-an and Ir-ak have the same root.

***
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq#History: In the sixth century BC, the region became a part of the Persian Empire under Cyrus the Great for nearly 4 centuries, before it was conquered by Alexander the Great and remained under Greek rule for nearly two centuries. A Central Asian tribe of Iranian peoples called Parthians then annexed the region, followed by the Sassanid Persians for 9 centuries, until the 7th century. The Ottoman Turks took Baghdad from the Persians in 1535. The Ottomans lost Baghdad to the Iranian Safavids in 1509, and took it back in 1632. Ottoman rule over Iraq lasted until World War I when the Ottomans sided with Germany and the Central Powers.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alijsh,

Iraq

Not everybody agrees on the etymology of the name Iraq. I mentioned Uruk above because I am currently studying Sumerian and was struck by the name of this ancient city and its similarity to the modern term Iraq. Th etymology of the name Iran which Alijsh gives above is not controversial.

The group They Might Be Giants sang this song on their album Flood. As a matter of fact, I have it as a ring tone on my cell phone

Istanbul (Not Constantinople) Lyrics
Artist: They Might Be Giants
Album: Flood


Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night

Every gal in Constantinople
Lives in Istanbul, not Constantinople
So if you've a date in Constantinople
She'll be waiting in Istanbul

Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it I can't say
People just liked it better that way

So take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks

Istanbul (Istanbul)
Istanbul (Istanbul)

Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it I can't say
People just liked it better that way

Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks

So take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks

Istanbul

quote: The Wikipedia article sums up the various and sundry names of Istanbul rather nicely.

Well, as I find to be often the case, it tells some but leaves some unanswered. I gather that Istanbul means "the city". And Wikipedia says ""After the creation of the Turkish Republic in 1923, the various alternative names besides İstanbul became obsolete in Turkish. In an edict of March 28, 1930, the Turkish authorities officially requested foreigners to cease referring to the city with their traditional non-Turkish names (such as Constantinople) and to adopt İstanbul as the sole name also in the foreign languages."

But why were other names "obsolete"? Because they were "non-Turkish"? The article indicates that some of the other names were "Ottoman"; is that different from Turkish?

But why were other names "obsolete"? Because they were "non-Turkish"? The article indicates that some of the other names were "Ottoman"; is that different from Turkish?

They don't say, probably because they don't know exactly or don't want to say ... Probably because they didn't want to have their capital city named after the Roman emperor who declared Christianity the official religion of his empire. Ironically, the name they chose was a Greek loan phrase. Many cities have taken this strategy (of trying to regulate the foreign naming of their city) over the years. The latest example was during the last Winter Olympics. Turin wanted to be called Torino. (Ironically, the local dialect pronunciation of their city's name was closer to Turin.) Ukraine doesn't want to be known as a country with a definite article. Even though Ukrainian doesn't have definite or indefinite articles. Beijing instead of Peking or Peping. The Indian examples I gave above. The list goes on.

In the end, people confuse the symbol with its meanings and connotations as well as it denotations. I think it has more to do with perceived and imagined insults and slights than anything else. It's similar to euphemism and dysphemism. I saw something similar in the USSR, way back when, when tour guides in Leningrad would refer to St Petersburg, Petrograd, and Leningrad as a way to distinguish their city during its different historical instantiations.

I am delighted to see that you have joined us, Alijsh! I hope you will stay with us and share more of your knowledge!

I had no idea when I started this thread that it would get such good replies!

I see that I erred in the title, however: "Turk" is not plural, so I misplaced the apostrophe in "Turk's" I'm amazed that nobody chastised me for it!

Now, how about the name of the founder of secular Turkey, Mustafa Ataturk? Was his name his birth name, or did he assume it when he entered politics?

Thanks dear Asa Lovejoy for your welcome.

As for Ataturk, I think it's a title awarded to him for his works. Ataturk means father of Turks or something like this (I don't know Turkish but I know Ata means father).

In travel, air tickets must be written in English - and that means the English transliteration where that differs from the name actually used in the issuing country. Thus an air ticket issued in France for travel to London, should use the English spelling, not the French "Londres". Of course, the French, being hugely chauvinistic, frequently ignore the rule.

For rail travel the situation is different and the local spelling is used. Thus it would be "Munchen" not "Munich", "Firenze" not "Florence" and "Oostende" not "Ostend".

Mustafa Kemal Ataturk was originally plain Mustafa Kemal. According to Wikipedia

quote:

He is revered by the people of Turkey as the Father of the Nation, and, on November 24, 1934 he was presented by the Turkish National Assembly with the surname "Atatürk" (meaning "Father Turk" or "Ancestor Turk"), hence Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.

quote:

Persia became Iran.

I have noted that the peopole I know from Iran will say they are "Persian." I don't know them well enough to ask personal questions, but I did ask one woman, who has lived here many years, why it is called Iran. She hesitated. It was clearly a delicate question. She said that during Hitler's time, they did not want him to identify them as Semites. They wanted to be identified as Aryan (i.e. Iran.) I don't know how valid this is.

The former governor of Oregon, Victor Atiyeh, was of the son of Iranians , but I never heard of anyone calling him "Persian." This is ever so stereotypical, but true: His family sells carpets!

I have had over the last few years, and still have now, various Iranian students. There is clearly some division of opinion as while most have called themselves Iranian some have insisted on Persian. While most have said they speak Farsi, some have said Persian. I have never discussed with any of them why this is but it is something I've noticed.

Yes, people I meet from Iran often call themselves "Persian," too, and I've wondered about it, but I've hesitated to ask. I've wondered if it were for political reasons.

Wikipedia has an interesting article on ethnonyms, both exonyms and autonyms (or endonyms), that may be of interest to folks for this thread. And also this site on the variants of European placenames.

Very interesting, z; I hadn't heard of endonyms before. I was surprised in that long Wikipedia list that Iran and Persia weren't there.

I was surprised in that long Wikipedia list that Iran and Persia weren't there.

Add 'em.