CJ has asked me to bring this question here, though we both realize it isn't an earthshaking question, that's for sure. I had suggested a semi-colon after the first line of the limerick below. CJ wrote, "I can't say as I understand Kalleh's sug regarding the semicolon. The primary use for the semicolon is to link two independent clauses to make one point and while L1 and L2 are both independent clauses, they express separate thoughts. Linked together, I don't see where one overall thought is expressed." This was TrossL's limerick, and originally she had a period. I thought a semi-colon was better because line 2, to me, is too dependent on line 1 to make sense alone. CJ says that it's his understanding that if 2 independent clauses express separate unrelated thoughts, there's no reason to link them. Is that the only reason for a semi-colon? I will also check in the Chicago Manual of Style.


It's an herb that's akin to a carrot;
Though I like its taste, you can't bear it.
I say celery's best
With a dip; you protest
That it's food only fit for a ferret.

I would use a full stop. Period.

The "though" does not really connect to the first line; it relates to the differing tastes between the two people.

It's an herb that's akin to a carrot. You can't bear its taste;/, though I like it.

Flip the second sentence around and it is

It's an herb that's akin to a carrot. Though I like its taste, you can't bear it.

If anywhere, I think the semicolon goes between "taste" and "you", though I don't think I would use one.

I'd use a full stop as well. Neither a semi-colon nor a colon seem strong enough here.

I'd use a full stop myself

Mind you, unless you're Bugs Bunny, I'd suggest you can't rhyme "carrot" with "bear it" and "ferret". Still that's a matter for the OEDILF WEs.

They are pretty good rhymes to me.

I didn't comment on the rhymes but I agree with Richard. None of them rhyme if you are English.

The second syllable of carrot has a schwa compared to the short i of the other two while the first syllables all have different vowel sounds - carrot having the short a of hat, cat, ban, man etc; bear rhyming with wear, air, care etc; ferret having the short e of bet, men, let etc.

They aren't even near rhymes to my ear. I just assumed that there is some peculiarity of the author's dialect that suggests that they do rhyme.

quote:

"carrot" with "bear it" and "ferret"

These all rhyme for me.

"carrot" with "bear it" and "ferret"

I assume they rhyme for most US English speakers. Ours is not an r-less variety of English, so the syllables bear and ferr- both have pronounced rs in them. The vowel in unstressed it and the final syllable -et are both schwas.

quote:

Originally posted by zmježd:
"carrot" with "bear it" and "ferret"

I assume they rhyme for most US English speakers. Ours is not an r-less variety of English, so the syllables bear and ferr- both have pronounced rs in them. The vowel in unstressed it and the final syllable -et are both schwas.

How curious! What is the vowel sound in the first syllable?

Thanks all. Damn, though...I hate to be wrong. I think I use semi-colons too freely then.

Bob, the rhymes work for U.S. speakers, and if you recall, if the rhyme works for the writer, it's a go. I remember some of both yours and Richard's that I've approved where the rhymes didn't work.

For me, the sound is: b-air-it; c-air-it; and f-air-it. Perfect. Some might say cair-ot, versus cair-it, but that's a small quibble.

How curious! What is the vowel sound in the first syllable?

An open-mid front unrounded vowel. In IPA /ɛ/. Same as in care and get. It's pretty much Standard Midwestern English. Some US speakers are careful to pronounce carrot with a /æ/, which is a bit lower.

quote:

Originally posted by BobHale:
"carrot", "bear it", "ferret"
How curious! What is the vowel sound in the first syllable?

I hear "bear it" and "ferret" as rhyming words, with "carrot" distinctively different, although close enough to qualify as an "stretching the point" rhyme.

Edit: By the way, in looking this up I discovered that ferret comes from Latin meaning little thief. How cute!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Hic et ubique,

Kalleh, I would probably go with the period at the end of the first line, or at least a colon or an em dash (more informally) because the semicolon doesn't slow me down enough. I trip over the meter of the next line with it. But I don't believe the semicolon is incorrect. I believe you could punctuate the two lines with a period, a semicolon or a colon. I thought the semicolon was a way to splice two sentences together "legally." I did not believe that they had to be trying to make the same point, though there is a sort of convention of using a semicolon to splice two sentences where the second flows naturally from the first--not necessarily making the same point, but a logically sequential point. I believe the semicolon gets used a lot more in academic writing than elsewhere, so you are not wrong to want one there. I believe it would be absolutely wrong to use it between "taste" and "you," though, because "Though I like its taste" is a dependent clause.

As for carrot/bear it/ferret, they all rhyme exactly for moi aussi, though I do know people around the Philadelphia area who say "cahret" with the same kind of "ah" sound that Michael Palin uses to say "Cathcart Towers Hotel," once he finally spits it out, at the end of "A Fish Called Wanda. In the Philly version, the "r" is pronounced, as zmj points out.

Wordmatic

Well, thank you, WM, and I think I have been exonerated by the style manuals, too. My conclusion is that it's a matter of style, though I probably shouldn't have suggested the semicolon in the first place.

Here is what the Chicago Manual of Style says:

"The semicolon, stronger than a comma but weaker than a period, can assume either role, though its function is usually closer to that of a period. Its most common use is between two independent clauses not joined by a conjunction." The sentence they used was: "The controversial p'ortrait was removed; in its place had been hung a realistic landscape. [2003, 15th Ed., p. 256 (6.57)]

Similarly the 2003 Oxford Style Manual (p. 124) said: "Use the semicolon to punctuate two or more main clauses that are closely related and could have been joined by a coordinated conjunction...or treated as separate sentences." Their example: "The road runs through a beautiful wooded valley; the railway line follows it closely."

Surely everyone would agree that the two independent clauses are closely related. So, bottom line, either way is acceptable.

WM, I agree with you about the stresses, and she has italicized I and you in line 2. Still, I don't consider that optimal.

Caution - a little too graphic for pre-breakfast reading

Of course we all seem to be ignoring the fact that a ferret is a carnivore and the only carrot it is usually going to eat was the one in the digestive tract of the animal it just caught.

quote:

Originally posted by Myth Jellies:
Of course we all seem to be ignoring the fact that a ferret is a carnivore and the only carrot it is usually going to eat was the one in the digestive tract of the animal it just caught.

That's why we hired you to be our resident biologist, Myth! We'll keep track of the metric feet, and you keep track of the species-specific stomach contents!

And OK, what's cerebroplegia? Paralysis of one's brother's head? I looked it up in Onelook and there were no definitions. I Googled it and some of the top hits are your entries from Wordcraft with your signature line.

Cheers--
Wordmatic

We used to have ferrets, and they ate ferret food along with a few treats. If I recall, they also ate a little alfalfa. But I checked on the Internet, and you are completely right. Since there is a physiological reason for it, I think I should let them know in the workshop. Thanks a lot, Myth. It's so good having you here!

And change the last line to, "...That it's food only fit for a parrot..."

This will have the added benefit of rhyming with "carrot" (although what's to be done about the L2 rhyme I couldn't say - unless one could work in "carat" - which is a homonym rhyme anyway.

Belatedly one adds it's not good form to start a sentence with a conjunction or adverb. FWIW

Belatedly one adds it's not good form to start a sentence with a conjunction or adverb. FWIW

And how.

quote:

Belatedly one adds it's not good form to start a sentence with a conjunction or adverb. FWIW

And why not, one might ask?

Frequently I will start sentences with adverbs and/or conjunctions even though my primary school teacher told me I shouldn't. But I believe she was wrong, as I believe she was wrong to tell me to eschew one-word sentences. So I use them. Often.

Chuckle.

quote:

Belatedly one adds it's not good form to start a sentence with a conjunction or adverb.

Ah...another prescriptivist among us. I am dying to know who you are, Treppenwitz.

Richard, carrot, ferret, and bear it already work for the author (and most Americans), so it's staying that way. A workshopper helped her write a clever AN: "Actually, ferrets are carnivores, so they don't care for celery either."

cerebro-: prefix pertaining to brain, cerebrum, the "seat of higher intelligence".

-plegia: suffix indicating paralysis.

This really belongs in the insults thread, because "cerebroplegic" was an adjective I coined, and several of my friends used to describe people and situations in high school. It was as useful describing the smokers in the school bathrooms back then as it is in describing the mind-numbing popular TV fare today. Cerebroplegia, a back formation from cerebroplegic, is the effectively brain dead, "don't bother me with that thinking stuff" state. I was actually surprised to find some scattered references to cerebroplegia as a medically induced coma on the web.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard English:

quote:

Belatedly one adds it's not good form to start a sentence with a conjunction or adverb. FWIW

And why not, one might ask?

Frequently I will start sentences with adverbs and/or conjunctions even though my primary school teacher told me I shouldn't. But I believe she was wrong, as I believe she was wrong to tell me to eschew one-word sentences. So I use them. Often.

One was indulging in a bit of irony (?), having begun one's own comment with an adverb.

"One"? You are a bit of a mystery, Mr. Treppenwitz.