I heard a speaker this week who was talking about our needing a clear definition of the word competence, so he was talking a lot about words. In the discussion about words, he mentioned that there is no word for our concept of "sharing" in German. Their word (is it "Aktie" - that's what I find in Google Translate). He said that their word for "share" only means that you divide into pieces - but not our concept of "sharing" a story, for example.

There are people here who are familiar with German. Is that the case?

No. It's nonsense. Oh, I suppose if you insist on "a word", you could, were you inclined to look foolish, point out that some of the verbs that match out meanings of share are reflexive so they use two words ... sich [] teilen, for example is the "split" meaning. There are lots of words that mean share (with it's various connotations) teilen, teilhaben,gemeinsam haben, teilnehmen, gemeinsam tragen, mitempfinden, sich etwas teilen, sich an etwas beteiligen, an etwas beteiligt werden, an etwas Anteil nehmen.

Teilen is the usual verb whether you are talking about a piece of cake or a piece of gossip.

The word you found is "shares" as in "stocks and shares".

It's another case of someone insisting that if a word has a range of meanings in one language then there should be exactly one word with exactly the same range of meanings in another. In short, as I said, nonsense.

Please ignore, trouble with accessing the system.

Not sure what you mean about accessing the system. However, the previous comment about "share," is exactly what I thought. I think that's precisely the difference between people who say there are no words in their language for a concept (such as my Chinese friend).

Here's an example: maskirovka is a Russian word meaning "disguised warfare." We don't have one word for it, but we could describe it.

I mean that my use of wordcraft is plagued by error messages usually saying that a "resource is not available". I try again and it works. It does sometimes mean that things get posted twice but then I have trouble deleting them because I get the same error message. It's annoying but I can still use it.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
Here's an example: maskirovka is a Russian word meaning "disguised warfare." We don't have one word for it, but we could describe it.

According to this dictionary маскировка is "camouflage".

This message has been edited. Last edited by: goofy,

I sure don't see that camouflage means "disguised warfare," do you? However, perhaps maskirovka means "camouflage" and not "disguised warfare."

That depends on how you read 'disguised'. If you take it to mean that the warfare itself is disguised - as a 'police action', say - then I can understand confusion. However, people taking part in warfare nowadays wear camouflage, to disguise themselves as the background; as the desert, the jungle or as mud (khaki). That meaning makes perfect sense to me.

Oh, is that what they meant, arnie? Then I get it. I thought it was a descriptor of the type of warfare.

Being a literalist isn't easy. The other day Shu asked me when the company told me something was coming. I answered, "They told me yesterday." Of course, he meant, "when was it coming?"

Since the Russian word for "mask" (маска) is contained in маскировка, it is literally "masked war," so it doesn't translate in the same sense that we use "camouflage" nowadays. However, "camouflage" came into common use as a technique during WWI, so we originally had the same association. This is another case wherein knowing the Cyrillic alphabet reveals a word close enough to English to understand it.

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff:
Since the Russian word for "mask" (маска) is contained in маскировка, it is literally "masked war," so it doesn't translate in the same sense that we use "camouflage" nowadays.

But it does! Doesn't it translate as "camouflage"?

quote:

sich teilen

"Teilen" is cognate with English "deal"

But in our same way, Goofy?

I see "Ersatzteil" written on spare parts boxes sold in Germany. Thus I assume it has more than one implication.

I see "ersatzteil" written on spare parts sold in Germany, so I assume it has more than one meaning.

Geoff, it looks like you're having a the same problem as I am - that is, you write a post and it suddenly disappears (both of yours then posted). I thought it was my computer, but now that I am seeing it may be happening to others, I wonder if it's the site.

An ersatzdoppelgangenteil?

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
But in our same way, Goofy?

What do you mean?

The way we use camouflage. Macka translates as "mask" and маскировка as "masking." I see camouflage as meaning something slightly different from "mask." "Masking" is covering up to make you look different, while camouflage is making you fit into the surroundings. I will give you that they are close, but I see a nuance of difference.

According to the dictionary I linked above, маскировка means "camouflage".

If it doesn't mean "camouflage", then what is the Russian word for "camouflage"?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: goofy,

My translator translated it as "masking." I don't know all Russian words, but I do know that there are words in other languages that we don't have in English (haven't we discussed that before?). We just use more words to describe it. So in Russian, they'd just say as dictionary.com does, "concealment by some means that alters or obscures the appearance."

It means both "masking" and "camouflage".

http://ega-math.narod.ru/Quant/AJL.htm

http://icecube.berkeley.edu/~dima/stuff/rus/

http://dictionary.cambridge.or...h-russian/camouflage

Okay, that's what the dictionaries say. I get that. However, I don't think "masking" and "camouflage" are synonymous. The difference is just a nuance, though, and not a big deal.

Google Translate says this Russian word means "camouflage": камуфляж. It translates маскировка as "masking."

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
Okay, that's what the dictionaries say. I get that. However, I don't think "masking" and "camouflage" are synonymous.

Of course they're not. Most words have more than one meaning, and маскировка has at least two.

камуфляж is a borrowing of English or French "camouflage".

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:


Google Translate says this Russian word means "camouflage": камуфляж.

That IS our word and theirs; the difference being only the alphabet.

So are you saying that маскировка doesn't mean "camouflage" because it has the word "mask" in it? That seems like the etymological fallacy. All the dictionaries say that one of the meanings is "camouflage". Why should we not believe them?

All the dictionaries? Wow, that is pretty convincing. I realize Google Translate is hardly a dictionary so I'll give up.

However, at least when I write, I'd never use masking to mean camouflage. And I do not think the dictionaries that include both "masking" and "camouflage" are seeing those as different meanings of the word; they are too close in meaning. I think those dictionaries are seeing "masking" and "camouflage" as synonyms. That's where I disagree.

However, in the history of the world, this is a very small disagreement.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
And I do not think the dictionaries that include both "masking" and "camouflage" are seeing those as different meanings of the word; they are too close in meaning. I think those dictionaries are seeing "masking" and "camouflage" as synonyms.

I can't imagine why you would think that. We know they're not synonyms.

We seem to disagree about how multilingual dictionaries work. I assume that if a dictionary listed a word in language 1 as meaning words X and Y in language 2, then those words were how the word could be translated. The dictionary isn't making a statement about whether words X and Y are synonyms.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: goofy,

I think I'll buy some camouflage masking tape.

Speaking of camouflage, spot the octopus in this photo I took a few years ago
https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/...080@N00/15298916773/

Great picture, goofy! Clearly a camouflage, rather than a masking.

I use wordrefernce.com almost exclusively when writing or translating, & encourage beginning [conversational French & Spanish] students to use it for zeroing in on the word or phrase that best expresses the meaning they wish to convey. Basic translations start with standard dictionaries (they'll usually tell you which ones), but they'll give you a multitude of expressions to show how a word is used. Most valuable to me is the index to forum questions using your word (scroll to the end of any entry). Here you'll find discussions among contributors from various countries telling you which translation is most common where they live, delving into the tone of various options, etc.

This online dictionary covered only English, French and Spanish when I started using it a dozen years ago. Soon they added Italian, then Portuguese, then German. Russian is a recent addition, so the forum section is virtually non-existent-- although they do give more than one word for 'camouflage', & categorize them (Mil, Zool). German is also still in the expanding stage, but there's a regular 'Senior Member' on board at the forum, so you'll probably find the translation of 'share' you wish to convey.

Thank you, Bethree. I just went there and it looks good.

I am curious, though, about something you wrote. You said you use it when writing - is it useful if you are just writing (I write a lot in my job), but are not translating? If so, how?

quote:

wordrefernce.com

All I get are advertisements and links to other sites. What am I missing?

an e. sorry! wordreference.com

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
is it useful if you are just writing (I write a lot in my job), but are not translating? If so, how?

No sorry Kalleh, I meant to say when writing in another language. Even just dashing off a FB response to my friend's German husband-- tho' I don't claim to speak German beyond novice-intermediate level-- I try to get it right. But the SUPER help it has been is with teaching little kids Spanish. The vocabulary of daily lingo differs vastly from one LA country to another. I'm able now to be consistently 'Mexican', which is useful for Americans & matches my accent.

How many languages can you at least somewhat communicate in, Bethree? You sound quite multilingual.

Kalleh-- Sadly just the same ones I studied in college nearly 45 yrs ago, tho fluency has improved with use over the years: French, Spanish, & [very basic] German. I am looking forward to studying Italian: Latin & Spanish give me a head start, & there's a teacher in the next town whose adult conversation group I plan to join soon.

My strength is in accent/ speaking (musical ear & strong mimicry skill) which is good for teaching youngest students. Audio skills would be a whole lot better in Fr if I got more practice-- it's mostly just been visits w/Fr cousins every 5 yrs or so; listening to native Sp conversation is easier to come by here.

Films are great for listening practice. My absolute fave in recent French movies & highly recommended: "La Délicatesse" is available as "Delicacy" in French with Eng subtitles.

I am in awe of those on this board who can read other alphabets & have knowledge of so many languages!

I am in awe with you! That's great.

My son took Spanish in high school. When he took a trip to Spain, he reviewed the language by watching Spanish TV, and he ended up translating for all his friends who went with him.