When did joined-up, or handwriting come to be called cursive writing? As a child I never heard the term; it was always handwriting or script. Who's the educationese-speaking character who cursed us with this newfangled term?

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Originally posted by Geoff:
Who's the educationese-speaking character who cursed us with this newfangled term?

"Their complex system of abbreviations, which rendered the cursive hand-writing... almost as operose... as the more stiff characters of older manuscripts."
- Henry Hallam, Introduction to the literature of Europe in the fifteenth, sixteenth, and seventeenth centuries, 1st edition, 1837-1839 (4 vols.).

It seems in the late 18th century. The term was borrowed from the French adjective cursif to describe a "running" kind of handwriting where the letters were "run" together without lifting the pen off of the paper. It was originally a paleographic term snf I have seen the Latin terms littera cursiva textualis as well as "cursive Roman" and the like in more modern works on paleiography.

I think, if I remember correctly, we called it "cursive" when I was in school.

I learned a new word from goofy's post, operose.

Then it's a case of terms cycling in and out of favor. Related to the computer term, cursor, I assume?

I cursored at my computer just a while ago

Yes, cursor "runner" and current "running" and cursory all stem from that famous verb in Latin currere "to run".

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Originally posted by zmježd:
... stem from that famous verb in Latin currere "to run".

That explains why I get the runs after eating curry.

That is so interesting about "cursor," z. I wondered how long "cursor" from computers has been around. Etymology.com says that in the "computer sense" it has been around since 1967, and it's an extension of the slide part of the slide rule. I remember slide rules, but I hadn't realized the slide part was called a "cursor."

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,

I do remember sliderules, but I don't think I ever learned that the part with the line on it was a cursor. 1967 sounds about right for computer cursors. There's a famous video of a demo given around that time by Douglas Engelbart, the inventor of the computer mouse.

Here is the history of slide rules which mentions the cursor (although it's hard to find early in the article. See the round slide rule section.

An aside from "cursive", what is "griffonage"?

It's the atrocious handwriting doctors use when writing prescriptions.

I still have a conventional slide rule, an E6B from WWII which is made of aluminum, and a later plastic version from my flying days.

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Here is the history of slide rules which mentions the cursor (although it's hard to find early in the article. See the round slide rule section.

Thanks, Proof. Shu didn't believe me about the whole cursor part of the slide rule, and I was able to prove him wrong. It may have been the first time in my life!

Geoff, I believe, unless I threw it away, we still have a slide rule around the house, too.

From the OED Online:

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cursive
Etymology:  < medieval Latin cursīvus, < curs- participial stem of currĕre to run: see -ive suffix. Compare Du Cange s.v. Scriptura. In modern French cursif, -ive (1797 in Hatzfeld & Darmesteter).

A. adj. Of writing: Written with a running hand, so that the characters are rapidly formed without raising the pen, and in consequence have their angles rounded, and separate strokes joined, and at length become slanted.

1784   in W. Fry New Vocab.
  
1837   H. Hallam Introd. Lit. Europe I. i. 70   Their complex system of abbreviations, which rendered the cursive hand-writing..almost as operose..as the more stiff characters of older manuscripts.

1844   G. S. Faber Sacred Cal. Prophecy (ed. 2) III. v. v. 164   The gradual invention and..general use of the cursive greek character.

1881   B. F. Westcott & F. J. A. Hort New Test. in Orig. Greek II. Introd. iii. 76   The Cursive MSS range from the ninth to the sixteenth centuries.

Tinman, what about the etymology of cursor in computers - did it mention that?

Courrier's also related, as is current.

"Crow" is not related, but I'm eating it for thinking cursive was a new term, or newly applied term. It's really puzzling why I had not heard it used prior to the debate about whether it should still be taught. Maybe because in the BC (Before Computers) era longhand writing was the norm?

We don't usually refer to it as cursive particularly in the UK, just as "handwriting".

It was called script in my school days as well ('50's-'60's). Presumably usage varied with region, as both terms have been around so long. Ah for the good old days of regional variation! Today in most places, to ensure cursive is taught in your schools, you have to pass a state law!

"Since the nation-wide proposal of the Common Core State Standards in 2009, which do not include instruction in cursive, the standards have been adopted by 44 states as of July 2011, all of which have debated whether to augment them with cursive... California, Georgia, and Massachusetts have added a cursive requirement to the national standards." (From wikipedia art. "Cursive") The article adds that a few states (Illinois, Indiana, Hawaii) require instruction in keyboard proficiency; cursive is optional.

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It was called script in my school days as well ('50's-'60's).

And lots of other things.

writing &c. v.; chirography, stelography[obs3], cerography[obs3]; penmanship, craftmanship[obs3]; quill driving; typewriting.
writing, manuscript, MS., literae scriptae[Lat]; these presents.
stroke of the pen, dash of the pen; coupe de plume; line; headline; pen and ink.
letter &c. 561; uncial writing, cuneiform character, arrowhead, Ogham, Runes, hieroglyphic; contraction; Brahmi[obs3], Devanagari, Nagari; script.
shorthand; stenography, brachygraphy[obs3], tachygraphy[obs3]; secret writing, writing in cipher; cryptography, stenography; phonography[obs3], pasigraphy[obs3], Polygraphy[obs3], logography[obs3].
copy; transcript, rescript; rough copy, fair copy; handwriting; signature, sign manual; autograph, monograph, holograph; hand, fist.
calligraphy; good hand, running hand, flowing hand, cursive hand, legible hand, bold hand.
cacography[obs3], griffonage[obs3], barbouillage[obs3]; bad hand, cramped hand, crabbed hand, illegible hand; scribble &c. v.; pattes de mouche[Fr]; ill-formed letters; pothooks and hangers.
stationery; pen, quill, goose quill; pencil, style; paper, foolscap, parchment, vellum, papyrus, tablet, slate, marble, pillar, table; blackboard; ink bottle, ink horn, ink pot, ink stand, ink well; typewriter.
transcription &c. (copy) 21; inscription &c. (record) 551; superscription &c. (indication) 550; graphology.
composition, authorship; cacoethes scribendi[Lat]; graphoidea[obs3], graphomania[obs3]; phrenoia[obs3].
writer, scribe, amanuensis, scrivener, secretary, clerk, penman, copyist, transcriber, quill driver; stenographer, typewriter, typist; writer for the press &c. (author) 593.
V. write, pen; copy, engross; write out, write out fair; transcribe; scribble, scrawl, scrabble, scratch; interline; stain paper; write down &c. (record) 551; sign &c. (attest) 467; enface[obs3].
compose, indite, draw up, draft, formulate; dictate; inscribe, throw on paper, dash off; manifold. take up the pen, take pen in hand; shed ink, spill ink, dip one's pen in ink.
Adj. writing &c. v.; written &c. v.; in writing, in black and white; under one's hand.
uncial, Runic, cuneiform, hieroglyphical[obs3].
Adv. currente calamo[Sp]; pen in hand.
Phr. audacter et sincere[Lat]; le style est l'homme meme [Fr]; "nature's noblest gift - my gray goose quill" [Byron]; scribendi recte sapere et principium et fons [Lat][Horace]; "that mighty instrument of little men" [Byron]; "the pen became a clarion" [Longfellow].

That is amazing, Proof!

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Originally posted by Kalleh:
Tinman, what about the etymology of cursor in computers - did it mention that?

OED Online:

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cursor, n
Etymology: < Latin cursor runner, agent-noun < currĕre , curs- to run: compare courser n.1

The Latin word occurs in the title of ‘Þe tretis þat men cals Cursor Mundi’ (Gött. MS.), ‘The Cursur o the world’ (Cott. MS), of which it is said, l. 267,

Cursur [v.r. Cursor, Coarsur] o werld man oght it call,

For almost it ouer-rennes all.


1. A runner, running messenger. Obs.
[a1300 : see above. ]

2.
a. A part of a mathematical, astronomical, or surveying instrument, which slides backwards and forwards

1594 T. Blundeville Exercises vii. xii. f. 313, Euery one of these Transames or Cursours must be cut with a square hole..so as they may be made to runne iust vpon the staffe to and fro.

1793 F. Wollaston in Philos. Trans. (Royal Soc.) 83 139 The cursor, or moveable wire, in the micrometer-microscopes.

b. A distinctive symbol on a computer screen (e.g. a flashing underline or rectangle) that indicates the position at which the next character will appear or the next action will take effect, and which is usu. under keyboard control.

1967 Stotz & Cheek Low-Cost Graphic Display for Computer Time-Sharing Console (MIT Technical Memo.) 13 For graphical input, one would like to be able to move a pointer or ‘cursor’ over a stored picture and yet not store the image of the cursor.

1967 Stotz & Cheek Low-Cost Graphic Display for Computer Time-Sharing Console (MIT Technical Memo.) 13 The cursor on the screen ‘follows’ the motion of the ‘mouse’.

3. In mediæval universities, a bachelor of theology giving the courses of lectures upon the Bible which formed one of the necessary preliminaries to the doctorate. (no citations)

Compounds

cursor key n.(also cursor control key) any of a set of keys on a computer keyboard for controlling the movement of a cursor on the screen.

1979 A. Cakir et al. Visual Display Terminals i. 19 The cursor control keys are usually located in a separate block..on one side of the main keyset.

1981 Electronics 8 Sept. 115 (caption) The cursor keys, right of center, choose menu parameters.

Note: I didn't show all the citations, just the first and any I thought were particularly interesting. It seems cursor (and mouse) appeared in 1967, but it took 12 more years for cursor control key to show up and 2 more to shorten it to cursor key.

Interesting, Tinman. Of course [sic], course and curriculum are related to the Latin verb also. So, "run its course" is a tautology.

A little-known fact is that cursive originally was a nasty letter written by a witch or wizard.

Yeah, sure, and tautology is the study of tightness.

No, tautology is the study of teaching.

Well, I don't get that sic, z.

It's sic in its original meaning in Latin, "thus". "It's a joke, son. I say are you listening to me?"

Classical Latin did not have a word for "yes" or "no". Medieval Latin used sic "thus" and non "not" for yes and no.

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Medieval Latin used sic "thus" and non "not" for yes and no.

Hence si and oui in Romance derivatives like Spanish, Italian and French, etc.

The usual etymology for french oui is from Old French oïl from Latin hoc ille.

Is tautology what a lawyer learns? Maybe Shu knows.
Or is it the science of bakery products?
Or the biology of midget turtles?

Just for the record, from the Greek ταυτος (tautos) 'identical' (literally, 'the same') + -ology.

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Originally posted by zmježd:
The usual etymology for french oui is from Old French oïl from Latin hoc ille.

Is it? That would explain the Occitan dialects, with their word òc for "yes".

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Is tautology what a lawyer learns? Maybe Shu knows.Or is it the science of bakery products?Or the biology of midget turtles?

Is a biologist an expert on same sex marriages?
And ar archeologist an expert on Noah?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: <Proofreader>,

I always find sics to be a little arrogant. I just came across one today in the Tribune:

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"Please do not me permit (sic) to engage in any activities in your facility. … I realize that this request is irrevocable."

I realize that the writer likely made an error, but I was remembering my Spanish and was thinking it would be fine in Spanish. Besides, while it sounds a little off, you certainly can understand what he meant. I am not sure sic was meant to be used in instances like that.

Essentially, "(sic)" means in these cases "It wasn't me". The writer wants to make sure the reader understands that the text is quoted exactly as written, warts and all. Any mistakes or other unusual aspects are by the original author, and are not those of the writer.

It certainly does come across sometimes as arrogant and could possibly be avoided sometimes by a little judicious editing; however, then the writer is open to the charge of altering what the original author said, possibly changing the meaning as well.

There is also the possibility that without the "(sic)" there, a copy editor or other person could "correct" the writing when it was important to report exactly what was originally said.

I suppose one could substitute verbatim for sic. Would that be less snobbish, Kalleh?

Yes, Geoff, because to me sic implies a peever.

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Any mistakes or other unusual aspects are by the original author, and are not those of the writer.

I've always considered sic to only mean that there were mistakes, not "unusual aspects." That is helpful.

I guess my sic needed a sic, but that's a slippery slope because then it's sics all the way down. (In hindsight, I probably should've used an emoticon.)

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
Yes, Geoff, because to me sic implies a peever.

Leave It To Peever: One of my favorite TV shows, but then I am a peever.

Seriously, do you like "Leave it to Beaver? I realize this is off-subject, but I have always thought that to be the worst show ever. What do you like about it?

z, just because I don't like sics, doesn't mean I don't think they should be used. Besides, with arnie's comment about "unusual aspects," I can better understand the use of sic. I know that some don't like to use emoticons - my daughter hates them. I probably use them too much.

It's interesting that sometimes sic is used and sometimes it isn't. When sports figures, who sometimes are not that well educated, make grammatical errors, sic is never used. It would be rude, I suppose. Derrick Rose is the star of the Bulls, though he had trouble in high school, trouble getting an acceptable ACT score (there are rumors that he cheated) and trouble in college. So you might imagine some of his quotes, like this one: “I got confidence in my (surgically repaired left) knee." I would see that construction as an "unusual aspect," but there is no sic.

I guess there is a politically correctness when using sic, which makes sense.

Basically when a newspaper is reporting something that someone said they have four choices if there is an obvious error.

1. They can quote directly and leave everything as it was said. This leaves the potentially ambiguity of whether the person quoted made the mistake or the reporter who is quoting him.

2. They can run it exactly the same but use (sic) to indicate that it isn't their error but this can, as it seems to with Kalleh, lead to claims that they are intentionally (and perhaps arrogantly or maliciously) pointing out the person's mistake.

3. They can quietly and without mentioning that they have done so "fix" the error but that of course means that they are no longer directly quoting and can lead to charges of "but that's not what I said!"

4. They can change it all to indirect speech with "X said that..." and then paraphrase but this is even more likely to lead to charges of "but that's not what I meant."

The editorial decision of which way to go with it is by no means an easy one.

There is a fifth option. That is to "fix" the sentence using parentheses or brackets to indicate that changes have been made editorially. In the example given by Kalleh, they could have put “I [have] got confidence in my (surgically repaired left) knee."

YMMV if that seems any more or less patronising than the use of sic.

Since I am a peever by nature I see no reason for so-called political correctness. If a statement does not jibe with the style and/or standards of the publication in which it is quoted, sic is sensible - or so it seems to me.

I can understand it more with a typo or spelling error, but grammar "mistakes" can be quite subjective. For example, my editor would call the ending of any sentence with a preposition an error so would use a sic. Would you, Geoff? That is going overboard, in my mind.

Lovely demolition of an ill-informed peever over at Lavengro but - more relevant to this current discussion - is that "sic" in the middle of "Tristán (sic) White" which appears here to be the writer's own pre-emptive use. If that is the case then it can only have been used as if to say "this IS how I spell my name -accent and all - and I'm just making sure that you fools don't get it wrong".

If, and I would like to emphasise the "if", it is the writer's own use then - in this instance - I'd say the charge of arrogance is merited.

Yes, preemptive sic. A goodly term. I have seen this before.

In the comments Peter Harvey says that he added the (sic). Also in the comments there is a mention that the accent is used in Spanish and Hungarian, and also from LinkedIn that White seems to have a degree in Hispanic Studies. As one might expect, he doesn't seem to have any qualifications in the English language.

It is amazing, though, that when the pedantics or peevers get down to work, how many "errors" they can find. In that one little quotation there were 16. Wow. And I agree that the letter was not written ironically.