I'm a little puzzled by a conversation I'm having at the OEDILF with CJS. It's about this limerick.

'Twas not beef, had not come from a cow.
I spit the vile stuff out, and how!
"It's bean curd" they said.
I said, "Tell me, instead,
What the hell it's supposed to be now!".

Now assuming he's not unique I'll explain the rather lame (and very old) joke it's based on.


Man In Restaurant: Waiter what is this?
Waiter: It's bean curd sir.
Man: I don't want to know what it's been, I want to know what it is now.

CJ contends that not one American in a hundred would pronounce "been" and "bean" the same way and that the normal pronunciation for "been" would be "ben".

Over here I'd say not one Brit in a million would pronounce "been" as "ben" although most in casual speech would use "bin".

Comment if you wish but my question is which of the following words rhyme for you and how (and I know this is a nearly impossible questions without phonetic symbols) DO you pronounce all those vowels?

been, bean, lean, seen, obscene, green, screen, teen, mean, Christine, caffeine

They ALL rhyme for me (though I too, in casual speech, say "bin" - though my accent should hardly be taken as a model.)


I see that rhymezone (which is almost exclusively American) says that ALL of the following rhyme with "been".

an, bin, can, chin, begin, kin

which supports the "bin" pronunciation though not the "ben" one.

Curiously looking up "can" in rhymezone suggests that it rhymes with both man, ban, tan etc AND been.

CJ contends that not one American in a hundred would pronounce "been" and "bean" the same way and that the normal pronunciation for "been" would be "ben".

Well, I haven't had the benefit of meeting all Americans. I would only say /'bi:n/ (rhyming been and bean) for jocular purposes. Otherwise, I usually say /'bɪn/ (rhyming with bin). While I still maintain the difference between pin and pen, I sometimes pronounce been as /bɛn/ (rhyming with Ben). This seems to be where been would be unstressed.

bean, lean, seen, obscene, green, screen, teen, mean, Christine, caffeine

These all rhyme for me.

an, bin, can, chin, begin, kin

An and can tend more towards a pronunciation with a schwa for me in casual speech where their syllable is unstressed, but they can be pronounced /'ɪn/ and /'kɪn/ to rhyme with the other words in the series.

My main problem with this is that when I read poetry aloud, I declaim. It's about as far from casual speech as I can get.

Given that it's the OED that you're parodying at the OEDILF, my vote is that "been" rhymes with "bean."

Old fart Asa, the has-bean.

Old fart Asa, the has-bean.

Beans are the "musical fruit".

For of all sad words of tongue or pen,
The saddest are these: “It might have been!”
– John Greenleaf Whittier

When Guy Wetmore Carryl re-told the tale of Jack and the Beanstalk, he ended it thus:

The Moral is that gardeners pine
Whenee'er no pods adorn the vine.
Of al sad words experience gleans
The saddest are: "It might have beans."
. .(I did not make this up myself:
. .'T was in a book upon my shelf.
. .It's witty, but I don't deny
. .It's rather Whittier than I!)

quote:

Well, I haven't had the benefit of meeting all Americans.

Oh, thank you for that, z. I get so tired of those kinds of generalizations. I am not sure, but I do believe some east coasterners do rhyme "been" and "bean."

I haven't heard people rhyming "been" and "ben" before, but perhaps that's just my experience. I rhyme "been" with "bin."

quote:

been, bean, lean, seen, obscene, green, screen, teen, mean, Christine, caffeine

For me, they all rhyme except "been."

quote:

an, bin, can, chin, begin, kin

For me, "an" and "can" rhyme; "bin," "chin," "begin," and "kin" rhyme. For the record, I have often found Rhymezone inaccurate, at least for my accent.

At any rate, I thought OEDILF allowed different pronunciations, so I don't see the problem.

quote:

I thought OEDILF allowed different pronunciations, so I don't see the problem.

Anyway, in this particular instance, the rhyme ian't part of the limweick's rhyme-scheme. Instead, an understood rhyme is used for the joke.

I agree with Arnie (and the implied similar sentiment of everyone else here, it think). Who cares if it rhymes in "regular" speech? It's a poem and a joke - the rules are different,and the limerick is fun.

The point is that someone didn't get it and actually asked me to explain lines 3-5. And after the explanation said "Oh, I see now but that's not how to pronounce 'been' so the joke doesn't work"

Or words to that effect.

quote:

Originally posted by BobHale:
"Oh, I see now but that's not how to pronounce 'been' so the joke doesn't work"

Or words to that effect.

Is an old fart a "has bean?" Perhaps that's his or her problem!

Although my impression is that US English doesn't have the same range of different pronunciations as does UK English, there are some very significant differences. For example, I suspect that those from the US's deep south would pronounce "bean" as "bay-yun" - which would certainly not rhyme with any "been" in almost any dialect.

It's a pity when this clever (albeit hoary) joke does not work in many US dialects.

Let me repeat a true story I told in the workshop for that limerick.

I was once in the main square of Jackson, Wyoming eating an ice cream when an American asked me where I had got it. I replied

"There's an ice cream stand in the hat shop."

(An odd place for an ice cream stand I agree, but true nonetheless.)

He looked at me as if I was speaking martian. I said it again more slowly to more blank incomprehension. I rephrased it as "They sell ice cream in the shop that sells hats." and pointed again.

More incomprehension.
After about six goes he finally got it and turned to his companion to say something that sounded like.

"Theyuh seyuls it in thuh sharp that seyuls hayuts."

One thing to bear in mind is that Americans tend to use "store" where we use "shop". In general, the smaller establishments are called "shops" in the UK, with "store" being reserved for larger emporia such as department stores and supermarkets.

quote:

Originally posted by BobHale:
Let me repeat a true story I told in the workshop for that limerick.

..."Theyuh seyuls it in thuh sharp that seyuls hayuts."

Seems like you got y'sef a real "s-kicker" from Teayxas!

I say "bin" for "been," but I once had an English teacher from Boston who said "bean." My husband's Aunt Mary did too, but she was from Montreal. "Ben" is probably more typical of the more western parts of the U.S. Midwest. CJ is from Kansas, where they tawk like that.

Wordmatic

Yes, you are correct, WM. Just having returned from the Southwest, they all say "ben" there. I was surprised. I must not have listened all that well in the past, as I had thought I'd only heard "bin" in the U.S.

quote:

The point is that someone didn't get it and actually asked me to explain lines 3-5.

Well, I am sorry, but I think most Americans would get it, no matter how they say "been." We all can miss things from time to time, and I suspect that's what happened.