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quote: Actually, we can travel to our neighboring countries without a passport too. Last summer we took a vacation to Canada. All I showed at the border crossing was my driver's license and had no documents at all for the kids. And several years ago when we went to Mexico for vacation, same thing. (Although my kids and myself all do have current passports, we only use them for cruises.) | |||
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I do think that, generally (and I hate generalizations), the people in the U.S. who are associated with the military, or even the current administration, are ultraconservative. Religious talk would be inappropriate, and not tolerated, in the business/professional world in the U.S., at least from my experience. I just want to say, whether we agree or not, I love this kind of discussion on this board because it is so elucidating about other cultures. | |||
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Religion in the military -- Chilling! Verrry chilling! To anyone who has read more than five of my posts here (and #900 is coming up shortly) I think it would be safe to say that I am seen as a bit on the liberal side. In reality, this is very much the case. And yet I spent 21 years in the military knowing full well that I was a misfit there. When asked if I was military, my stock answer was that I wasn't but that my job was. I honestly thought I could change the system from the inside, a noble enough goal but one which I cannot claim I totally succeeded in reaching. I too encountered VRPs (Very Religious People - evangelical Christians may be the worst offenders but there are others) and it is very disturbing to see them in positions of authority. I believe that Rudyard Kipling's "White Man's Burden" mentality is alive and well in the military but that its most condensed spirit may be found with the VRPs. "It's alright to bomb them, after all. They are not VRPs like us." The solution? I wouldn't mind seeing a return of the draft. Put every young person (and I do mean EVERY) into uniform for 2 or 4 years, fix their teeth, make sure they can read and write, expose them to cultures other than their own (within the U.S. and, if they're fortunate, without as well) teach them CPR and basic first aid, and make them do something valuable for their country and community. The happy accident of having been born here shouldn't automatically result in every yahoo reaping the benefits of being a citizen of one of the greatest countries in the world. A sidenote: While in the military, I was once reprimanded for "mocking the religion" of one of my co-workers, a charge which was totally baseless. This person asked if I were "born again" and, when I implied that once was enough for me, informed me that he was, in fact, born again and therefore was, in undeniable fact, destined for Heaven. I challenged him to prove that he was born again and asked to see his rebirth certificate. Needless to say, both he and supervisor, both VRPs, did not have a sense of humor. Not mine, anyway. | |||
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quote: I agree. That's what I was trying to say. I don't think Americans can't understand what life in Britain in the war was like because they're Americans, I think they can't understand for exactly the same reason that I can't understand. We weren't there. quote: Exactly the point I was trying to make. Some aspects of American life - good and bad - have left me bewildered whenever I've visited. To choose a positive example, people working in shops, hotels, service industries etc. will often talk to the customer as if he's a lifelong friend on about ten seconds acquantance. I had a security guard in the Chicago Art Institute strike up a conversation with me and after a couple of minutes we were cohatting away as if we'd known each other since childhood. This is definitely a good thing but it's very disconcerting at first. It rarely happens here. {QUOTE] I also think there's a cultural snobbery in Britain about the U.S. It makes us feel better to tell ourselves that Americans aren't very bright, don't understand irony, came in late to the war, whatever. [/QUOTE] I don't believe this and I sincerely hope that nothing I've ever said on this or any other board gives the impression that I do. I do however believe that it's a mistake to assume that because we speak a common language our cultures are identicle. quote: No arguement from me on that one. Non curo ! Si metrum no habet, non est poema. Read all about my travels around the world here. Read even more of my travel writing and poems on my weblog. | |||
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quote: "Cohatting" (usually spelled with a hyphen) is not to be encouraged. There's always the threat of head lice. | |||
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quote:No, Bob, you don't give the impression of snobbery whatsoever. I am just so interested in this discussion though. I still am skeptical as to whether there really is that much difference between our cultures. Your cohatting (great word  , though I couldn't even find it in onelook) is a fine example. while my husband will strike up a conversation with anyone, the taxi driver, the gas station attendant, the guy next to us in a restaurant, I am much more reserved in that. Don't you think it is an individual thing? | |||
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Duh ! That's chatting - unfortunately I started out to write "conversing", changed my mind halfway through to intend "chatting" and ended up with cohatting. It would be a good word though. If only it existed. Non curo ! Si metrum no habet, non est poema. Read all about my travels around the world here. Read even more of my travel writing and poems on my weblog. | |||
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Bob, I wasn't accusing you of cultural snobbery, sorry if it read like that. I do think there is a British way of thinking that characterises Americans as unsophisticated, though, and derides them for it. Do you not find that? | |||
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Paul, since we have such a wonderful British presence on this board, I have begun to read a lot about the U.K. Most books say exactly that. Now, I think it may be our fault for not being more discriminating in what we print and disseminate to the entire world. I purposely have not brought up a horrible thing that happened only a few miles from us, in hopes that none of you had read about it. Now, please don't go Googling it up because it is nasty and disgusting...and definitely not the norm, either here or at that school. Having said that, there was a hazing "incident" in a high school near us that got out of control. Before we knew it, it was broadcast all over the Chicago area, then all over the midwest, then all over the country (my kids in college on the east and west coast heard about it)....and then all over the world! In fact, it was highlighted in the AOL news, and of course the video of it is available online. Now...for God's sake, why? Why do we have to continually be made to look like uncivilized fools here? The fact is, we really aren't that bad! | |||
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It's a delicate area to tiptoe into, Kalleh, but I will try. I think what irritates some of us is the apparent assumption that a) the U.S. is pretty wonderful, b) the rest of us want to be like you. Real life is a little more complex than that, I think you'd agree. The other thing that annoys outsiders is the U.S. assumption that other places are just like the U.S. (or are trying to be) and that the U.S. is therefore the centre (center?) of the Universe. We are bemused that you have a thing called the "World Series", when no-one other than Americans actually play in it. (And I know, I think, that it's named after a newspaper or something, but that's not the point -- it does seem to illustrate an American attitude that we detect.) Similarly, if I watch CNN International in a hotel room in say Singapore, I can find out absolutely everything about the latest happenings in Poughkeepsie, how mothers in Iowa are worried about a shortage of apple pie or something, but nothing about anywhere outside of North America. Major world events are simply ignored if they didn't happen in the U.S. I have certainly met Americans over here who don't realise that dollars are not actually our currency and we don't use or take them; I've even met a few who think the "Europe" is one country, and are amazed to find we all have our own histories and languages. And we Brits think your gun laws are pretty strange. Having said that, I've also met plenty of Americans (especially in the U.S.) who are the nicest, most generous people you could hope to meet. In particular, I can think of many who are thoughtful, well-educated and very well aware of (and sensitive to) other places and other cultures. But that maybe, rightly or wrongly, isn't the general impression we get. The British, of course, hardly have an unblemished record when it comes to running an Empire, so we're not well-placed to criticise, but I think we tend to overlook that. We probably underestimate how much non-British people disliked us a hundred years ago. The Iraq thing has done your image no favours, I'm afraid. I don't think I can begin to explain how. Even here, where support for "the war" has been comparatively strong, U.S. actions now are seen to be self-serving (whose companies will benefit from the reconstruction contracts paid for with Iraqi oil sales?) and U.S. troops are seen as having been heavy-handed with local civilians after taking control. (It has been noted here that U.S. troops always patrol in heavy armour, with helmets, and shout a lot. British troops patrol in Land-Rovers, in berets, and talk and listen. Maybe a parody, I don't know.) Even -- and I do hope I won't offend you here -- it maybe is felt that September 11th has been seen by Americans as uniquely awful. Awful, yes, but not unique. If you read up on the massacres in Sabra and Chatila, or some of the massacres in Africa (Rawanda, say), or the Somme in World War 1, you realise that that many people have been killed in one day in other countries. We sympathise with you, but we wonder why you haven't noticed what has been happening to other people (sometimes with American involvement) in the past. I do hope I have not offended anyone. I have not noticed any of these attitudes in people on this forum (quite the opposite, in fact), and I am sure they are not shared by all, or even many, Americans. But it is the impression, I think, that people outside the U.S. sometimes have of America. | |||
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Oh, and I'm afraid the "hazing" incident hasn't made the news over here, so I don't know about it. I'm not quite sure what that tells us! | |||
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quote: Pauld, you have not offended me in the slightest. I agree with everything you said. My government, however, does offend me. I saw a T-shirt the other day that bore a message that sums it up: "I love my country, but I'm ashamed of my government". America has become a selfish, arrogant and greedy bully, and it saddens me. Tinman | |||
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Tinman, thank you. It's a funny thing, but you just don't hear people here say "I love my country", and I think that indicates something deep (about us and about you). Maybe it's because of the confusion (as the_bear is alluding to elesewhere) as to which our country actually is (England, Britain, UK?); we might say "I love England" occasionally, or "I love it here", but in that case we'd probably be referring to a particular thing about it -- some peculiarity or quaintness, or remarking on a particularly nice spring day, or something. Your "I love my country" (which is clearly an admirable sentiment in itself) seems to us to be as much a sentimental claim about the American people as about the country itself, and runs the risk of veering towards smugness or overweening pride. (Again, I must pause here to say this isn't meant as an attack on tinman or anyone here, although it probably reads as rather ungrateful, given that tinman was trying to reassure me that I hadn't offended him!) We also don't place our hands over our hearts when we sing our national anthem (the singing of which we find deeply embarrassing and to be avoided if at all possible), we don't swear an oath of allegiance in school each morning, we don't fly flags from our houses, and we don't finish political speeches with "God bless Britain". I don't know whether that makes us better or worse than you, but it certainly makes us different. And, lest I seem completely ungracious, there is no doubt in my mind that the U.S. has given the world very much to be grateful for: the Internet itself, as we're discussing in another rhread, would not have happened without American energy, vision, intellectual prowess and consistent and extensive funding and infrastructure support. The rest of the developed world has been given a wonderful free gift. As for modern computers, although we Brits like to think we invented them (in Bletchley Park, 1943, for code-breaking) I don't think they'd have developed the way they have if left in our hands! American concepts of customer service have also had a big, beneficial, influence here, although we have a long way to go (and I don't think we really "get" customer service, actually). And much of your TV is wonderful. Paul. (With apologies, again.) | |||
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Probably not. It is worth recalling, though, that the World Wide Web is, like the computer itself, a British invention. Richard English | |||
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Tim Berners-Lee, yes. Now at MIT, of course! But I feel the Web was a lesser invention than the Internet, although it has probably affected far more people. A bit like inventing the postcard -- clever enough, but it wouldn't have happened had not the postal service been there to make it possible. | |||
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quote:Paul, I have been trying for 2 days to respond to this, but with my work and greeting all the new people added to this wonderful forum, I just haven't had a chance. The funny thing is, what you have said has been almost identical to what I have heard from others in England, so there must be some truth to it. I agree completely with Tinman. Your opinions certainly don't offend, and I, too, am sick to death of the selfishness and greediness here....especially in government. Now, to respond a bit, though. First, in all fairness, we cannot help what news is broadcast all over the world, now, can we? Much of what is broadcast is slanted and negative anyway. IMHO, Bill Clinton was a good president, both nationally and internationally; yet, look at what was broadcast around the world. Okay, he had a bit to do with it, too!  Secondly, we have friends who are from Manchester. He says, and I certainly agree with him, that Americans romanticize England. We love the accents, the royalty (which we just cannot fathom), and, yes, often the "proper" behavior. One book I read says that Americans are much like teenaged kids to the Brits. Much like teens, the Americans are beginning to "feel their oats", so to speak. The Brits are a bit proud, though they also, at times, are disgusted by their uncivilized behavior. It's just a thought. Last evening we were in a restaurant, and our very friendly waitress had a bit of an English accent. She said she was from Chicago, but lived in England for a year. She said she purposely tried hard to develop the accent because everyone in London was extremely nice to her.....until she opened her mouth. As soon as they found that she was from the U.S., this waitress felt anyway, that people were rude to her. Perhaps it was her mis-perception, who knows. | |||
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I think it's a H. L. Mencken quote: "My country, right or wrong" is like saying "My mother, drunk or sober." Still, "My country, right or wrong" is, I feel, a very (United States of) American viewpoint and one which has led us down dark pathways on more than once occasion. Ref our love of a British accent, I knew a military family who had been stationed in England for some five years or so and their children all spoke just like those two kids from "Mary Poppins." When they came back to the states, the kids couldn't say two words without every Yank within earshot absolutely swooning! And one note about our, in my opinion, ridiculous obsession with pledging allegiance to a colorful rectangle of cotton. I was once a member of a neighborhood improvement association that would begin each monthly meeting with everyone standing to recite the pledge. One meeting, the president was late. Since 1.) the general consensus was that meetings would begin on time regardless and 2.) the president was the one who brought the flag, we all stood up, patriotically placed our hands over our hearts, and pledged our allegiance to the area in which the flag would have been displayed had it actually been there. We ended up, in effect, pledging allegiance to a copying machine! And I was the only person in the room who thought that this was insanely funny and sad at the same time, but such is life in the Mid-West. | |||
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Kalleh, I don't think the bad impression is because you broadcast bad things about yourselves but because the news about America is in such detail, and the news about non-America is so superficial. It makes us think either the broadcasters are very self-absorbed, or they think their viewers are. This is even more striking when the broadcast goes outside America. I wouldn't be surprised to turn on the TV in Texas and find there's a lot of news about Dallas, but it does seem odd when I turn on the TV in Singapore, choose a supposedly "international" channel, and find it's reporting a Little League upset in somewhere I've never heard of. I suppose it just means that their audience is Americans, even if they're outside America. But it sometimes seems that Americans insulate themselves from any non-American influences, even when they're abroad. (A lot of hopeless generalisations in that, I do realise. I'll say again that I've met lots of Americans who are nothing like the picture I'm painting.) | |||
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In the most positive sense, I strongly urge everyone to catch the play "Greater Tuna" if it is ever presented in your area. Tuna is the third smallest town in Texas and most of the action takes place in the local radio station. During one news program, where one of the locals is reading copy taken from an outside source, the newscaster says something along the lines of: "...and a nuclear disaster in a power plant this morning spread radioactive fallout over 14 states." He then pauses his broadcast to read ahead and after a few moments he cheerily adds "None of 'em Texas!" Sadly, too many U.S.of Americans are like this. (Oh, and, by the way, "Greater Tuna" features 20+ characters, male, female, and one canine, but is written so that they all can be played by just two actors. It is truly an excellent piece of work!) I'd be specifically interested to hear a review of this play by any of our transpondian friends though I don't suppose, by its very nature, that it would very likely be staged over there. | |||
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quote: I bet she was right, and I think we should be ashamed of it. As I said elsewhere, the British like to feel superior to other races. It leads us into stereotypes (Americans are crass, the French are devious, Germans only obey orders) and sometimes, regrettably, the dimmer type of Brit lets the stereotype affect how he treats individuals. I'd like to think she'd have met other people who were perfectly courteous, whether they liked her personally or not. | |||
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Paul, as far as news within the U.S., I agree that we often only hear about national news, with the NY Times (which by the way is widely read throughout the states) being an exception. But, my point was: How can we help what is broadcast in Hong Kong or London or wherever else? How is that the fault of our being too isolated? However, you are quite right that we are too narrow-minded in our focus. Probably it has a lot to do with our country being so big, as opposed to the countries in Europe. I thought it so funny that Richard English actually alerted me to the fact that there was going to be a terrorist drill in Chicago before I found out. After all, I do live in Chicago! I think that, more than anything, made me realize what you mean in this thread. I cannot imagine being alerted to a similar event in England. | |||
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quote: Because the broadcasters I'm talking about in those places are US broadcasters (CNN especially). The "local" broadcasters (often Murdoch-controlled, in fact) seem better, as far as I can tell. As to how British people form our negative opinions of Americans, I'll have to think about that ...! | |||
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I imagine the recent war in Iraq didn't help matters. However, in general, everyone--no matter where he/she lives--has the same values, don't you think? We want to live peacefully, independently, productively. We want our children to be fed, clothed, educated and have a peaceful future. I cannot imagine that, as a group, the Jews, Protestants, Hindis, Palastinians, Muslims, etc. wouldn't want that. Now, yes, individuals may have foul motives. I am talking generally. Perhaps we should all start from there. | |||
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quote: Jumping into this subject somewhat belatedly here. Though I'd long known the gist of Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal, I just now read it for the first time. It's an incredible piece of satire, one I highly recommend. But for purposes of the discussion of "British attitudes toward Americans," please note that the Swift's ninth paragraph refers to an American. | |||
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