Our editor just asked me if she should write "set of criteria" or "set of criterion" (the context is that we are recommending a particular set of criteria.) I immediately said "criteria." It just sounds right to me, and that's what I've always heard. However, she says that maybe the masses are perpetuating the mistake. She thinks that "set of" might mean that we should use the singular, or "criterion." I suppose I can see her point, but it sounds awful to me. Any thoughts?

[edited to correct misuse of a word.]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,

Would she also say "set of card" or "set of cards"? "Set of dish" or "set of dishes"?

I can't think of a single instance where "set of" is followed by a singular noun.

Set of book or set of books?

Set of postcard or set of postcards?

She might be muddling it with the usage with mass (uncountable) nouns where we would say (for example)

Set of cutlery, but as nouns like this don't have a plural anyway it isn't the same case at all.

Of course, the criteria are, but the set of criteria is.

Now for some real fun, let's talk about whether the data is or the data are.

Oh, Wally, we've analyzed the heck out of data is and data are. I think most of us agree that it's data are, but there may be a few "is's" out there too! (The apostrophe in is is for clarity; I know it's not possessive. Just being proactive before the vultures descend upon me! )

I have let my editor know your thoughts on "set of criteria", and she is grateful for the expertise. We have a Board now that mixes with our operations and particularly loves to point out any grammatical error. For example, in one document a Board memeber said, "We're going to have to call the grammar police. There must be a semicolon there!" It is my opinion that a semicolon is absolutely never essential in any sentence. I've learned to just sit back and give the "all-knowing" smile. Thankfully, though, it wasn't my document, or I might not have been quite so calm!

But don't let that put you off Wally. We positively thrive on reviving old discussions around here. There are a few (no names, no pack drill but you all know who you are) who seem to bubble the same two or three back to the top every few months.

Bob, I have just one word to say to you:

Beer.

I hang out on classical music threads, too, and there are several that never die. Like malaria, I guess, every now and then they wake up and become virulent.

Herbert von Karajan was a Nazi.
The diamond commercial music.
Philip Glass
Andrea Bocelli
Twelve-tone music

I too have a word, epicari...

On second thoughts, perhaps I'd better not.

What goes around comes around. We expect soon to see a Double Dactyl that starts like this :

Higgledy piggledy
Herbert von Karajan ... ... ...

quote:

I too have a word, epicari...

We only have used the word epicaricacy 252 times on this site. That seems about right; it's a fairly common word.

Yes, Jerry, what a perfect name for a DD!

Higgledy piggledy
Herbert von Karajan
Wasn't a Nazi
As all facts can prove.

And so it was with some
Epicaricacy
He told all his critics
"You'll have to improve".

Herbert von Karajan
Wasn't a Nazi
As all facts can prove.

Really. If by joining the National Socialist German Workers Party in 1933, he can't be called a Nazi, what then is your set of criteria for inclusion. There is a scene in Max Ophuls' The Sorrow and the Pity of von Karajan conducting an orchestra in occupied Paris. It is from a Vichy French newsreel.

Bet you wish you hadn't mentioned it now, Wally.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard English:
Higgledy piggledy
Herbert von Karajan
Wasn't a Nazi
As all facts can prove.

And so it was with some
Epicaricacy
He told all his critics
"You'll have to improve".

This site is so hot. I pat myself on the back daily for joining wordcrafters. It gives me a distinct sensation of epicaricacy, anticipating the discomfiture of my dictionary-toting relatives when I drop this word into my next email home. And a six-syllabler to boot.

quote:

Really. If by joining the National Socialist German Workers Party in 1933, he can't be called a Nazi, what then is your set of criteria for inclusion.

Frankly I know not and care not whether he was or not. My objective was simply to write that DD.

But so far as joining the National Socialist Party is concerned, there are many that did that in the 1930s - not because they embraced what became to dark ideals of the Nazis later in the decade, but because it was difficult to progress in any public position unless one became a member. The same could be said of Communist party membership in the USSR.

For most it was a pragmatic, not an idealistic, choice. We sometimes forget how lucky we are to live in countries where we are relatively free to choose the beliefs we espouse.

Frankly I know not and care not whether he was or not. My objective was simply to write that DD.

And my objective was to point out that if early and, by accounts, fervent membership in the NSDAP didn't make one a Nazi then pretty much nothing did, i.e., the word is meaningless. Come on, Richard, if I wrote a paeon to the American Budweiser wherein I called the rice-based alcoholic beverage beer, you'd shatter the moon going through it. Be that as it may, I don't don't really care if von Karajan was a Nazi or not; it has nothing much to do with appreciating his conducting skills. If somebody wrote some bit of doggerel about Vladimir Putin not being a Commie, I'd have to point out that not only was he a member of the Party but he was also chief of the KGB. Von Karajan fell into disfavor with the Hitler regime in '39 or so, and went through a post-war denazification in Austria, but I'm not aware if he ever apologized for his views or even if they changed. He wrote a piano piece in 1938 called the Heldensonate. which he originally titled the Anschluß Sonate. Another famous German, and one with whom I am also familiar was the German philosopher, Martin Heidegger, who went through a similar cycle in the '30s. He definitely never apologized or ever mentioned it again. A famous German composer, Beethoven, originally dedicated his Third Symphony to Napoleon Bonaparte, but the latter subsequent dictitorial actions made old Beethoven change his mind and rename the piece.

Well, beyond the mistake about Herbert von Karajan not being a Nazi, there are considerable, shall we say, workshopping challenges with the DD. For example, line 3 only has 5 syllables; line 4 has 5 syllables; "epicaricacy," while a great word, does not have the DD meter; line 8 has 5 syllables; and there are a few stretches with the meter in some of the lines.

I have read some articles about Herbert von Karajan, and actually Wikipedia has an excellent and objective analysis, I think. It is quite clear that he joined the Nazi party early on, and while some say he did so to promote his career, it was noted that other famous conductors (Bruno Walter, Erich Kleiber and Arturo Toscanini, for example) fled from fascist Europe rather than joining the Nazi party. Also, he enjoyed a major success with Wagner's Tristan und Isolde, and Wagner is considered so antiSemitic that none of his operas have been staged in Israel. Most Jews I know (including me) won't listen to his music. Similarly, many Jewish musicians such, as Isaac Stern and Itzhak Perlman, refused to play in concerts with Karajan because of his Nazi past.

Now the interesting thing about Karajan is that on October 22, 1942, at the height of the war, Karajan married Anita Gütermann, the daughter of a well-known sewing machine magnate, and who, having a Jewish grandfather, was considered Vierteljüdin (one-quarter Jewish). That started some nastiness with the Nazis, and he fled Germany. Interestingly, he divorced his wife in 1958. It reminds me of the famous saying:

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

~ Pastor Martin Niemöller

quote:

there are considerable, shall we say, workshopping challenges with the DD.

I do realise that it was a far from good DD. I am better at limericks but the challenge of writing a DD with both Karajan and the E-word featured was too much to resist.

So far as beliefs and ethnicity is concerned, I don't think I have ever allowed a person's status ever to affect the way in which I treat him or her. (Apart from Dudweiser drinkers, of course;-))

And I would sooner listen to Wagner than I would to Stockhausen, simply because his music is better. To refuse to listen to Wagner because he was anti-Semitic isn't going to change Wagner's beliefs now. There are many authors and composers whose attitudes are now considered very unfavourable in the light of our present standards - but we shouldn't try to impose our values on previous generations.

To refuse to listen to Wagner because he was anti-Semitic isn't going to change Wagner's beliefs now.

I never suggested that I wouldn't listen to von Karajan's performances because he'd been a Nazi, though some musicians refused to perform with him which is their right. In fact, I own and enjoy a Deutsche Grammophon set of HvK's Beethoven's symphonies. I also own and enjoy some pieces by Wagner and Stockhausen. To ignore or whitewash Wagner's antisemitism or von Karajan's membership in the National Socialist party is simply wrong.

[Added a space between words.]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: zmježd,

quote:

I also own and enjoy some pieces by Wagner and Stockhausen.

Maybe I've not listened to enough Stockhausen, but I've never heard a piece of his that seems to me to have any musical merit whatsoever.

It was Kalleh's point about the refusal of some Jews to listen to or perform Wagner's music that I was commenting on when I spoke of my listening to his works. Assuredly he wrote some great music - anti-Semite or no.

As to whether one should ignore Wagner's anti-Semitism - that's a personal decision. As I said, it can make no difference now to Wagner or any of those his views once offended. We should try to learn from the lessons of history, of course, but to try now to punish Wagner (or come to that, Hitler) is rather pointless. The time for retribution is long past and it serves no purpose to dwell on the sins of our forebears.

quote:

I do realise that it was a far from good DD. I am better at limericks but the challenge of writing a DD with both Karajan and the E-word featured was too much to resist.

But my point was that, while a pity, "epicaricacy" just can't be used in a DD. Many words or names that I'd love to use can't be used because of the stringent rules. It just doesn't work. The closest correct use of "epicaricacy" was in a limerick that Hic once wrote, and we have used "epicaricacy" so much here that I just couldn't find that limerick when I searched.

quote:

So far as beliefs and ethnicity is concerned, I don't think I have ever allowed a person's status ever to affect the way in which I treat him or her.

I surely didn't imply that, Richard, and I hope you're not implying it of me. Someone's beliefs (such as being Republican) are a whole lot different from being a Nazi, hating the Jews and other minorities, and making it your goal to kill them all. We recently visited an elderly uncle of Shu's who said that an entire branch of their family was obliterated in the holocaust. That's different from allowing a belief to affect a person's status.

quote:

I never suggested that I wouldn't listen to von Karajan's performances because he'd been a Nazi, though some musicians refused to perform with him whichis their right.

zmj, Richard was referring to my comment and not yours. I don't listen to Wagner. While I love classical music, I just don't choose to listen to Wagner. We all have our preferences, and I am not about to apologize for that one.

quote:

We should try to learn from the lessons of history, of course, but to try now to punish Wagner (or come to that, Hitler) is rather pointless. The time for retribution is long past and it serves no purpose to dwell on the sins of our forebears.

Frankly, I am surprised at your glibness, Richard ("or come to that, Hitler"???), but perhaps it's because you weren't personally involved. I don't know.

[Edited from "different than" to "different from"]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,

quote:

Frankly, I am surprised at your glibness, Richard ("or come to that, Hitler"???), but perhaps it's because you weren't personally involved. I don't know.

I wasn't involved in the Holocaust, of course, but I was born during the War and have direct experience of the privations to which we, in England, were subjected due to Hitler's war.

But I see no reason to dwell on retribution and punishment; nothing we can do can change in the smallest degree what Hitler did or what his many victims suffered. All we can do is to learn from the lessons of that history and try to make sure that nothing like it even happens again. Sadly, it is abundantly clear from the evils of today's dictators, that the lessons have not been learnt by all.

quote:

But my point was that, while a pity, "epicaricacy" just can't be used in a DD.

I was under the impression that the second line of the second stanza had to be a single six-syllable word.

You used "Multiathletically" and "Callipygosity" in two of yours and each has six syllables.

It also has to be double-dactylic in stress pattern

EP-i-ca-RICK-a-see would work

ep-i-CA-rick-a-SEE doesn't really. (Though I happily mangle stresses in limericks!)

Since I have no idea how the word is supposed to be stressed...

To get an idea as to how the word is supposed to be stressed, click here, please.

To me, the word (when properly stressed) fits perfectly into the rhythm of the Double Dactyl.

EP i car IK a see .....

Well, Jerry, if your source is correct, you are right about that. However, having just posted something from Wikipedia (see below; about Wagner not being staged in Israel) that's wrong, I am skeptical about sources right now! I had always thought it was pronounced: EP-i-CARE-ik-a-see. Since it's such an uncommon word (or non-word), we'll probably never know.

quote:

But I see no reason to dwell on retribution and punishment;

I don't consider not listening to Wagner either retribution or punishment. Even if I were to, Wagner is dead, after all. It's rather hard to punish a dead person.

BTW, some wordcrafters have alerted me privately that I (and Wikipedia) am wrong about Wagner not being staged in Israel. I can't believe that I didn't remember this, but while Daniel Barenboim was the director of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, on July 7, 2001, he played Wagner. As you can see about 2/3 of the way down the Wikipedia article, he did so at the very end of a concert and gave people the chance to leave. About 50 left, and 1000 remained. He did receive a loud applause after the performance. The worst of it is, I now completely remember that; it was splashed all over the Chicago papers at the time. Oh, well...old age is setting in, I guess!

Hullo! I've been missing this whole conversation. I am still so slow with this forum format. I see now that I need to be looking at a whole forum daily, not just the 'last post' shown on the list of fora. DUH..

Ennyhoo... RE: pronunciation of "epicaricacy". As this website is well-represented on both sides of the pond, it would probably be well to assume there are often two, rather than one commonly accepted set of stresses for multisyllabic words. Would love some input on this from English-English speakers. I am thinking, for example, of the two commonly accepted pronunciations, Cah-rih-BEE-un and Cah-RIH-bee-un for the Sea, and oh, help me out here, I once knew many more. Typical examples would show that the British cadence leans toward a final DA-da-da (a dactyl, in other words) whereas American English as often as not will pronounce the same word with a final da-DA-da.

When I was growing up in the 1950's, the British pronunciation generally prevailed where more than one pronunciation was possible (i.e., in school), especially for place-names. I never questioned the tendency when young, as it matched with my upbringing. (My mother's clan was rife w/professors so my cousins all had private school/Ivy League accents by virtue of their tuition-free educations!) Jerry's source quote, /ep"-i-kar-ik'-i-see/, illustrates the stress I assumed-- based on my upbringing, the British pronunciation was 'always correct', ergo was used when in doubt. EH-pih-CAH-rih-kah-see sounds, not wrong, but rather American, to me.

RE: von Karajan double-dactyl Won't you come over to "Written Word" and admire my (REVISED) sequel to Richard's DD?

Your DD is nice, bethree! Have you done these before?

As for epicaricacy, the problem, of course, is that it's not a word that's used often. I've only heard people guessing how it's pronounced, and, because of that, I am highly skeptical of anyone's pronunciation of it. However, on the WWFTD site, Tsuwm also pronounces it like Jerry's source. Since I know Tsuwm, I will send him an email to find out why he thinks that. That's two sources to zero, though, so we're getting closer to the truth, I suspect. That particular pronunciation would be great for using the word in limericks and DDs!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,

well Kalleh, while I'd love in be in the majority on this one, in the interests of full disclosure I have to tell you that Jerry's source IS me.

as an aside, this NEAR-anoNYmity is my ongoing problem with being a source for answers.com...

edit: as to where I got the "/EP i kar IK i see/?" (note ?) pronunciation, I had a choice between Mrs. Byrne and Ammon Shea as equally dubious choices and just went with the one that suited my ear best!

edit/aside(2): back in the day, someone sent me an email informing that "at this current moment in time your website is a google-whack, as it is this only one to include the words 'epicaricacy abderian'." this has, of course, been OBE. (but I'm certain that other combinations would work.) <g>

This message has been edited. Last edited by: tsuwm,

I would go with the EP-i-kar-IK-a-see myself. This is partly because I pronounce the word "epicure" (not unlike the first part of epicaricacy) with the first syllable stressed.

I have seen the word in that original Bailey's, but I can't remember the pronunciation. I believe that particular Bailey's dictionary was in the rare books room of the Powell's in Portland. Perhaps Asa could look for us sometime. I believe Ammon Shea used Bailey, and not Mrs. Byrne, for his source. I will check Ammon Shea's book tonight because I am fairly sure we own it.

I wondered if Jerry's site had gotten its pronunciation information from your site, Tsuwm. I surely doubted that they went to Bailey's!

but Bailey has the word as epicharikaky -- if you take his orthoepy you must take his orthography!


edit: I don't know why I didn't think of this before!! -- Google[Books]

I know; it's not the perfect word, that's for sure.

Novobatzky and Shea ("Depraved and Insulting English") told us they didn't get their word from Mrs. Byrne's, but from Bailey's. So I trust their pronunciation a bit more. Theirs is: /ep ik AAH rik uh see/. So, though I absolutely hate to say Richard is wrong, I have to conclude that his use of the word in the DD is incorrect.

quote:

from Bailey's

we know that they got the word from Bailey; but do we know where they got the pronunciation? (my understanding is that the early editions of B. were lacking in this area.)

maybe now that Zay Smith has put our word into print in the S-T, Jesse S. will relent and include it in the OED updates...

Since there are many variations in pronunciations, even of quite well-known words, I don't think we can be dogmatic about this rarity - not until there's been more research (and maybe not even then).

quote:

So, though I absolutely hate to say Richard is wrong...

Of course you do. Why would anyone think anything different?

If a potentially dubious pronunciation of a very obscure word is the worst offense that your fault-finding witch-hunt can come up with, then I suppose I should look upon his posts with more admiration, not less.

quote:

we know that they got the word from Bailey; but do we know where they got the pronunciation? (my understanding is that the early editions of B. were lacking in this area.)

A local university (Northwestern) has in its library a copy of Bailey's, which I've consulted. It does have the epi- word, and it does have pronunciations. I'll check it at convenience.

(Can't say what edition it is. The cover-page is torn, and the date information is missing.)

Bailey's might show the pronumciation as it was, but English pronunciation has changed over the centuries. The problem is how is epicaricacy pronounced now?

quote:

The problem is how is epicaricacy pronounced now?

EPicarICacy.

(thanks, arnie)

epiCARicacy

This board cannot now dispute the matter, as it has accepted that accent pattern for three years. Precedent is established. Q.E.D.

quote:

If a potentially dubious pronunciation of a very obscure word is the worst offense that your fault-finding witch-hunt can come up with, then I suppose I should look upon his posts with more admiration, not less.

Good point, Myth!

[Edited upon further consideration]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,

quote:

This board cannot now dispute the matter, as it has accepted that accent pattern for three years. Precedent is established. Q.E.D.

I have never seen any agreement or even laid down rules for the pronunciation of this word. On the occasions that I have used it I have pronounced it with the stress on the first syllable. Like "epicure" as I have already noted.

Maybe the two words even have the same root.

quote:

This board cannot now dispute the matter, as it has accepted that accent pattern for three years.

Perhaps you should write to Bush to ask for a Presidential Proclamation on the matter. It worked for "Mother's [sic] Day".

Arnie, that [sic] didn't elude me at all!

quote:

maybe now that Zay Smith has put our word into print in the S-T, Jesse S. will relent and include it in the OED updates...

Well, when we were at the Wordcraft Convention last fall, we met with John Simpson of the OED and asked him to include "epicaricacy." He really didn't seem all that interested, for some reason.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,

quote:

He really didn't seem all that interested, for some reason.

Maybe that was because of the quality of the beer and the Turf Tavern - http://www.theturftavern.co.uk/! The Turf has just won the Abbot Ale national pub of the year award.

How exciting! To think that we were there!

I was wondering if anyone knows where Jesse Scheidlhower is? I think he's from California, but I am not sure. If so, perhaps at our next Wordcraft Gathering we could meet with him. That would be really interesting.

Finally OEDILF has opened the "ep" part of the alphabet for limericks so guess which limerick I have written? However, there is controversy on the pronunciation of it. I see in this thread we've discussed it and came to the conclusion that I used in the limerick, which is: ep-ih-KARE-ih-kuh-SEE. Mrs. Byrne's Dictionary says it is: /EP i kar IK i see/. Since Mrs. Byrne pronounces it that way, Tsuwm also cited that pronunciation in his site. Yet, in emailing him, he said he thinks my way is right.

Which leads me to the question, how does one know how to pronounce a word that is new and seen in writing, but not in speech?

Here's the limerick with the author's note:

Epicaricacy is a word
That is currently used by a nerd:
"Taking joy in misfortune."
The word that I'm torchin',
Schadenfreude, will soon be interred!

Whether epicaricacy (ep-ih-KARE-ih-kuh-SEE) is really an English word or not has been debated. It was first cited in Nathaniel Bailey's Universal Etymological English Dictionary in 1727, spelled as epicharikaky, though the subsequent Oxford English Dictionary has not cited it. It is cited in specialty dictionaries, however. Otherwise we only have a German word, Schadenfreude (pronounced shah-den-FROY-duh in this limerick), to mean "taking joy in another's misery."

Maybe I'll workshop it for you