While engorging on breakfast this morning I happened upon a TV show that was showing the Vatican Gardens. The host stated that the word, "vatican" comes from an Etruscan word meaning "property" rather than the Latin "Mons Uaticanus" I had assumed. Neither of my two unabridged American English dictionaries nor my copy of Partridge's Origins shows such an origin. I did note, however, that Partridge links "vatic" (of or about a prophet) and "vatican," whereas the dictionaries do not. OK, you etymology whizzes, help me out!

Vatic is ultimately from the Latin vates 'prophet, poet, seer' (cf. OE wód 'mad, insane', and all cognate with Oðinn / Odin / Wotan).

As for mons, sive collis, Vaticanus, your guess is as good as mine. I looked in my three etymological dictionaries of Latin (Walde, 2nd, Tucker, 1973, and Ernout-Meillet 4th) and only Ernout-Meillet mentioned Vaticanus: "M. Runes, IF 55 (1937), pp. 122 seqq., rapprochant vates de certaines formes étrusques du type Vati et Vaticanus, considère la mot comme d'origine étrusque, ceci sans vraisemblance. Sur Vaticanus, v. Elter, Rh. M. 40, 112 seqq." (M. Runes, bringing together vates and certain Etruscan forms of the type Vati and Vaticanus, considers the word (i.e., vates) as of Etruscan origin, this is probably not the case.)

This seems to imply that an Etruscan origin of Vaticanus is known and is unproblematic. Perhaps Varro or some other Roman writer had suggested this. Connecting a hill in Rome with seers and prophets is not a problem, but the adjectival form of vates is vaticinus 'poetic; vaticinal', so you'd have to argue why the other form with -a-. (And we have the other cognates to deal with if we argue that vates is of non-Indo-European origin.)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jheem,

jheem, what a jewel you are to this site! You definitely keep us on our toes.

BTW, I have been missing aput and sent him an e-mail. He has been having computer problems, but hopefully will be back soon. He, too, keeps us honest!

Kalleh, thank you. Hope aput shows up again real soon.

Five hundred knicker this machine cost me, five hundred knicker for something that's going to curl up its tootsies a few months out of its guarantee.

Anyway, the reason why vatic and Vatican can't be related in any easy way is that they have conflicting adjectival suffixes. One has -icus and one has -anus, each individually a perfectly good way of forming an adjective: in English -ic as in vatic, ludic, or -an as in Roman, Parisian. But -ican is highly unlikely. (Remember that place names like America, Armorica don't contain the other adjective suffix -ic.)

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Five hundred knicker this machine cost me, five hundred knicker for something that's going to curl up its tootsies a few months out of its guarantee.

aput, we all hear your frustration! Sorry about the 500 knickers (are those pounds?), but I am so glad to see you back!

This is an appropriate thread right now since the Pope has died today.

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Sorry about the 500 knickers (are those pounds?)

Knickers are underpants. However, knicker (without a final "s") means pounds (Sterling, not Avoirdupois).

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Five hundred knicker this machine cost me, five hundred knicker for something that's going to curl up its tootsies a few months out of its guarantee.

A Monkey? For a pistol and shooter? Youda got one cheaper from awfdebacks!

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Originally posted by arnie:

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Knickers are underpants. However, knicker (without a final "s") means pounds (Sterling, not Avoirdupois).

But paying 500 knicker for something that doesn't work is TAKING IT IN THE KNICKERS!

Still can't think of a Classical Latin word ending in -ic-an-, but the mediaeval terms Anglican, Gallican occurred to me. There's no strict prohibition against doubling-up: -ic-al- is common.

None of the Roman hills (the traditional seven, nor the Lateran and Vatican) has an obvious Latin etymology, except perhaps Lateran, the one on the side. Why Viminal from 'osier, basket', or Caelian from 'sky', if they are? Quirinal from Quirinus is begging the question; Capitoline from capit- 'head' because they found a giant skull in digging the foundations for the temple is strikingly question-begging. I'd want to know where that -ol- came from.

Still can't think of a Classical Latin word ending in -ic-an-

Using the substring search at Perseus for the Lewis and Short Latin dictionary yields:

Africānus < Africa, Corsicānus < Corsica, Labīcānus < Labīcum, docticanus 'singing skilfully' (Mart. Cap. 2, § 122) < docti-cano, Musicāni 'a people on the Indus', omnicanus 'that sings everything, everywhere' < omnis-cano, Palicanus < Palica, pelicānus (alt. for pelecānus), rusticānus < rusticus (used by Cicero), sēmicanus 'half-gray, grizzled', sōlicānus 'singing alone', subbasilicānus < basilica, Tūticānus 'a man's name' (Ovid).

They're almost all of them adjectives from placenames ending in -ica / -icum, a personal or gens name, some compounds with cano 'to sing' or cānus 'white'. And two Greek loanwords.

Substring search at Perseus! I didn't know you could do that: I've just seen the basic "beginning with" option. Must go and see how to do it...

So anyway, from that list there are just two, rusticanus and subbasilicanus, that do have the required sequence -ic-an-. So that pretty much rules that out for Vaticanus.

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sōlicānus 'singing alone', cano 'to sing' or cānus 'white'.

So solicanis solicanus canus is a white dog solo? How does cano relate to canto or carolus?

How does cano relate to canto or carolus?

Canto and chant, is from Latin canto a frequentative of cano 'to sing' < PIE *kan- 'to sing'. Carol, OTOH, is from Greek khoros 'choral dance' < PIE *gher- 'to grasp'.