It is interesting to me how politics (at least in the U.S.) has changed the real meaning of those words. Liberal, in my Webster's, means one who is open-minded or broad-minded, while conservative means traditional or preservative. Is that how you see the political parties using these terms? When you add in republican and democratic, it becomes even harder. Now--truly, I don't mean this to be a political thread (that could be the death of us all!)--but I am thinking about the words the political parties use.

It's late and I have to be up early so I won't get into this too much now (I'll come back to it tomorrow).
What I will say is that there was once a similar thread over on the snopes board and that a big source of difficulty there was that not only do the British use the words liberal and conservative to mean different things to the Americans but we also have actual political parties called the Liberal Party and the Conservative Party with very particular political views which again don't really correspond to the actual dictionary definitions of the words.

More on this tomorrow.

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I feel that the two terms are NOT mutually exclusive. Indeed, a liberal, in my opinion, is one who is intellectually and ethically free to examine all sides of issues. Having done so, one might decide that a traditional (conservative) position is the best one. I supose that's why I'm a registered independent.

I am with you, Asa, I am an independent. I believe I have voted just about half and half in the presidential elections. In fact, I voted for the senior George Bush, but not for his son. Unfortunately, in Illinois you have to register either as a Republican or a Democrat--nothing in-between.

What about the terms "leftist" and "rightist"? Here--Democrats and Liberals are often referred to by their opponents as "leftists", while Republicans and Conservatives are referred to as "rightists" by their rivals. How did those terms develop?

During his run for the presidency in the 60's, Pat Paulsen was asked whether he was left wing or right wing. He repied "Neither, I'm pretty much middle-of-the-bird." and then went on to explain that if you're too much one wing or the other you tend to fly around in circles.

Kalleh asks, "What about the terms 'leftist' and 'rightist'?"

My understanding is that after the French Revolution, the nobles in the French National Assembly were seated on the president's right side and the Third Estate was seated on the president's left. Accordingly, the sides were referred to as "the left" and "the right" (using the French words, of course). Great Britain borrowed this terminology some years later, and the US then took it from Great Britain -- though neither of those countries ever used the French seating arrangement.

I've read similar explanations to Wordnerd's.

Some years ago the Utne Reader had an article on just this subject, but I can't find it in my pile of old magazines. Maybe some of you who are more computer search adept than I can find it on-line.

Something I find amusing-cum-disgusting is the constant barrage on US radio of myriad "conservative" talk programs lambasting the "liberal media!" Huh? There seem to be two Rush Limbaughs, Michael Savages or Laura Schlessingers for every less polar pundit.

Interesting stuff. How about liberal and reactionary, rather than lefist and rightist?

It is true that having Conservative and Liberal parties does confuse the issue a little, but the terms are certainly in use in the UK - people often talk about being conservative with a small c, or liberal with a small l.

Welcome to the board Graham, referred across from FOTA I see.

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Indeed, welcome, Graham! In perusing your profile I note that you wish to defend words against restrictive use. A liberal, eh? Would you be so kind as to expand/expound on that theme?

Yes, G.N., welcome, welcome, welcome!

I see in your bio that you list your interests as "Dinosaurs Photography." I suppose the plus side of such an interest would be that you don't have to spend much on film!

quote:

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Originally posted by C J Strolin:
Yes, G.N., welcome, welcome, welcome!

I see in your bio that you list your interests as "Dinosaurs Photography." I suppose the plus side of such an interest would be that you don't have to spend much on film!

---

Oh, I don't know about that, You Studmuffin, You, I took pictures of "Sue". The dinosaur at the old train station in Kansas City, MO last year!

And by the way, a biiiiiiiig welcome to you Graham! *Smooches*

quote:

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Originally posted by Asa Lovejoy:
Indeed, welcome, Graham! In perusing your profile I note that you wish to defend words against restrictive use. A liberal, eh? Would you be so kind as to expand/expound on that theme?

---

A liberal, yes. Living languages are for free expression, art and commmunication. Save pedancy for Latin, Greek and Esperanto. If nobody corrected the grammar of James Joyce or Jack Kerouac, why should we bother about sign-writers missing out apostrophes?

Thanks to everyone for the welcomes. I am a refugee from the FOTA board, which has died a death recently. I shall miss the endless repetitive debate on the correctness of CD's (plural) or Nicholas' (possessive), but this wordcraft board looks fascinating.

Because the rules of grammar exist to aid communication, that's why!

The fact that the likes of Joyce chose to break them does not mean they should not exist. If they did not, then we would quickly be unable to understand each other (as most find it difficult to understand Joyce)

Of course languages change and historically it takes only a few hundred years for isolated communities' languages to change sufficiently for each to be unable to understand the others' language. Just think what a relatively short period elapsed before Latin, once the language of the civilised world, disappeared and the many European languages we now have took its place.

However, if people are allowed to change the rules as they wish, then anarchy will soon result. If you were to decide that, say, you were no longer going to call your car a car - you were going to call it a dingleblat - how would that help communication? Answer, it would not. The accepted names and rules of construction have been standardised to help us all to understand what we are each saying or writing. They should not lightly be discarded.

First printing and now newer methods of communication have helped to "fix" language and that is clearly to its advantage if communication is its goal.

Richard English

RE, well said. If such ones as Joyce break the rules, it is because they are msters of the rules, and know how to effectively break them. Consider Antony's words in Julius Caesar, "This was the most unkindest cut of all." Grammatically awkward, but the emphatic impact is undeniable. One must know how to navigate the seas of grammar in order to sail beyond them.

quote:

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Originally posted by Graham Nice:
A liberal, yes. Living languages are for free expression, art and commmunication. Save pedancy for Latin, Greek and Esperanto. If nobody corrected the grammar of James Joyce or Jack Kerouac, why should we bother about sign-writers missing out apostrophes?

Thanks to everyone for the welcomes. I am a refugee from the FOTA board, which has died a death recently. I shall miss the endless repetitive debate on the correctness of CD's (plural) or Nicholas' (possessive), but this wordcraft board looks fascinating.

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Well, well. A dissenting voice in our ocean of uniformity (mixed mataphor for you there CJ). It looks as if we're in for turbulent times.

Incidentally Graham don't count your chickens before they're hatched. The only reason that the CD's and Nicholas' debates aren't still raging over here is that CJ finally caved in a couple of weeks ago.

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WHAT??? The FOTA board collapsed? Oh, no! Now what do I do when I have a burning apostrophe question??!! And I have one right now! I had just e-mailed someone (about 5 minutes ago) that I was going to put his question on the FOTA board!

Did it really collapse, or is it just going through hard times? I have seen boards revive.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kalleh:
_WHAT_??? The FOTA board collapsed? Oh, no! Now what do I do when I have a burning apostrophe question??!! And I have one right now! I had just e-mailed someone (about 5 minutes ago) that I was going to put his question on the FOTA board!

Did it really collapse, or is it just going through hard times? I have seen boards revive.

---

It's just going through hard times and I'm afraid some of us here are the guilty parties - fickle creatures that we are - neglecting our old friends to play with our new friends.

The number of there postings in the last month or so has been very small indeed. Any one of us posts more here in one day than FOTA's total new postings in the last month.

Purgamentum init, exit purgamentum

Read all about my travels around the world here.

quote:

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Originally posted by BobHale:
The only reason that the _CD's _ and _Nicholas'_ debates aren't still raging over here is that CJ finally caved in a couple of weeks ago.

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OK, B.H., you're itchin' to get kicked off my moon!

Can I assume you're saying this just to goad me into resuming my battle with R.E.? I never considered that a loss and, by no means, a "cave in" and if you're going to cop an atitude on this point I just may "cave out" (the logical opposite of "cave in" which shows that logic does not always rule the day) and take opposing positions just for the sake of feistiness alone.

For the record, my past, present, and undying positions:

"Apple's for sale" is both wrong and shows a distinct lack of grey matter on the part of the sign painter. Call me elitist but I refuse to buy "apple's" from anyone!

"Mind your p's and q's" is correct since it adds clarity. "...your ps and qs" looks like a pair of abbreviations although "...your Ps and Qs is acceptable.

"CD's" is acceptable by extention of the above although I prefer "CDs" since this term does not easily lend itself to confusion.

Overall, I'm less pedantic than R.H. and less stuffy than R.E. while, at the same time, I (sometimes somewhat begrudgingly) admit that they generally know what they're talking about.


OK, had to come back to edit this. I, of course, meant to say "B.H." instead of the more formal "R.H." back there.

[This message was edited by C J Strolin on Thu Jan 23rd, 2003 at 16:49.]

I don't see why "CD's" would ever be acceptable, though I certainly can see "p's and q's" or "U's".

Sorry CJ

I believe the American phrase is something like

just jerkin ya chain

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quote:

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Originally posted by BobHale:
The only reason that the CD's and Nicholas' debates aren't still raging over here is that CJ finally caved in a couple of weeks ago.

---

One reason the debates aren't raging is they aren't worth the energy. Richard did finally admit that some US style books find "Jones'" acceptable, but not preferrable. Of course, to him it's still "wrong". But at least he has acknowledged that it may be considered acceptable by some.

Tinman

Well, I sound like a broken record (CD?), but I think there is tremendous value in one rule for the use of apostrophes (or any other grammatical use) for understanding and writing English.

The problem is that style books (and dictionaries) can only reflect what is going on in the world of language.

Because the "s + apostrophe" aberration is now becoming more common (although still a minority view) in the US, some style books are commenting that it seems to be becoming acceptable. Once any such change starts to be reflected in such a way, then people will begin to quote such references as "proof" that a usage form is "correct".

If the process goes on for long enough, then eventually it will be correct. There are hundreds of examples of such usage change.

In a "free" society we must allow for such diversity and accept that the alternative of state-controlled monopolies is probably worse.

Richard English

Well, from a concrete thinker, it's damned confusing....

Kalleh, I once heard it said of someone, "His mind is like concrete - all mixed up and permanently set!" I assume you are a concrete thinker of a different sort.

On a semi-related note, out here in the mid-west a "concrete" is a thick smooth ice cream concoction with bits of something else (cookies, pineapple chunks, roast beef, God knows what else) whipped in so that when you stick a spoon into it and turn the whole thing upside-down, nothing spills out. In this regard, I also have been a "concrete thinker" most of my life which in part explains why my high school prom tux is a bit snug these days.

Another of those interesting US/UK differences.

In the UK this sentence would have read something like...

"...my college leaving party DJ..."

In the UK the term High School is rarely used but can occasionally mean a girls' secondary school. A Prom is a Promenade Concert - we have no name for school leaving parties.

A tux, or tuxedo is called a DJ (Dinner Jacket) here - or sometimes "black tie". This is to differentiate it from the more formal evening dress of tailcoat, stiff-fronted shirt and white bow tie.

Richard English

Americans have nothing more formal then a tux to offer as proper attire, generally opting for a buisness coat and tie while attending formal dinners.

This might be for the illusion of a more egalitarian society although the reality is that class has its' priveleges.

As for the topic of liberalism - I would agree that it denotes the willingness for change and I consider change to be mandatory.

I wouldn't mind being a utopian conservative, however,this would presume that the political spectrum finally got things "right"...which would seem to deny the very nature of being human.

Glad to see you here.

You will find the discussions here interesting, I feel sure, although maybe not quite so contentious as some of the more extreme postings in Arianna's forum.

Things can get quite heated, though, especially when the topic of US versus UK English is broached...

Richard English

So good to have you, gr8dane! And from Texas, too. We have needed someone from the south, although I guess there is a difference between "south" and "southwest", right? Anyway, we are so excited to have you!

It's "gr8" to have a Texan aBoard! Welcome gr8dane!

GR8Dane? Hell, I thought someone had invited Victor Borge. Son, ya got some big shoes to fill with a name like that! Welcome anyhow!

Oh, can you play the piano?

Probably one of my favourite comedians whose use of the English language was exemplary. Interesting, too, that Børge Rosenbaum (for that was his real name) spoke no English when he left Denmark (for obvious reasons) during the Second World War.

Probably the only other comedian who could reduce me to tears simply by the way he spoke was Gerard Hoffnung - what might he have achieved had he lived longer than his thirties?

Richard English

Probably one of my favourite comedians whose use of the English language was
exemplary. Interesting, too, that Børge Rosenbaum
****************************************
I'll second that, RE! I had the opportunity to hear him live four times. I have yet to her him dead, but I suspect that even in that state, he's far funnier than most of the people trying to pass themselves off as comedians today. Now, how did you manage that "phonetic punctuation" of his real name, and why didn't it copy and paste?

Another favourite of mine was Steve Allen, whom history seems to have forgotten, despite his having had a long and multi-faceted career.

Asa the computer un-savv

I copied it myself from another document, although I know that there are special keystrokes that you can use. (For the ø symbol in Word it is control /o). Why it didn't paste I have no idea - maybe something to do with your code setups?

Richard English

Allow me to add my bel8ted greetings.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard English:
Things can get quite heated, though, especially when the topic of US versus UK English is broached...

---

Actually, it's not all that of10 we argue very heatedly, particularly on the topic R.E. mentions, except when it turns to a "My form of proper correct English can beat the pants off of that ill-informed series of troglodyte grunts and whistles that you call English any day of the week" sort of rant. Thankfully, though, this does not occur overly-much. If ever you are uncertain as to which side of an argument/discussion is correct, feel free to side with me and you'll probably be right 95% of the time. (Heh, heh, heh.)

I'm mildly astounded that R.E. did not jump all over your imaginative (and, sorry, incorrect) use of the apostrophe in its', an act of kindness I can only chalk up to:
1.) you being new to this board, and
2.) R.E.'s famous upper class British civility.
Even as a Wordcrafter Junior Member (and, again sorry, but every time I see that term an image of male genitalic deficiency involuntarily comes to mind) being from Texas, you undoubtedly are not the type to be easily frightened away by an apostrophical correction. Still you might want to keep in mind that R.E. is to his apostrophes what a chicken hawk is to her nest of eggs and that that British civility I mentioned can be broken down. I speak from experience.

Again, welcome to the board!


P.S.

Just looked up "troglodyte" on Dictionary.com to confirm the spelling and noted, along with the "caveman" sense I was already aware of, the following definitions:

1. an anthropoid ape, as the chimpanzee,
2. an animal that lives underground, as an ant or a worm,
3. the wren, and
4. a curmudgeon attached to an obsolescent computing environment.

An ant?? A wren??!!

Aren't dictionaries wonderful?!


P.P.S.

Oh, and Asa? Steve Allen will never be forgotton in part due to his authoring some two dozen books each of which could have been titled "How I Invented Comedy." I loved watching him as a kid but have you ever read any of his writing? My, God!


And (this is it, I swear) P.P.P.S.

Victor Borge once did a routine in what (I think, but I'm not positive) he called "inflation language" where every word containing the sound of a number was increased by one digit. People would go "three the store" instead of "to the store," "often" would become "Ofeleven" and so on. The name of the routine was "Opporthreenity Only Knocks Twice."

[This message was edited by C J Strolin on Sat Jan 25th, 2003 at 13:38.]

I've previously warned Richard that my use of apostrophes are in need of amendments.

The use of Its' was thought to be in a possesive sense, thus the catapostrophic failure.

I still have yet to do my homework on the subject.

Kalleh - I am a product of the deep south with the paternal family residing in Georgia and the maternal relations from Tennessee. Although the accent has been diminished somewhat (from growing up in the military). My best buddy (from Massachusetts) says he detects a distinctive drawl every now and then. He's quite the joker.

Asa - I was going to mention that I read Borges in college but then I remembered that was Jorges and not Victor Borge.
I do remember Steve Allen slightly...
I have no musical ability at all but I will embarass myself with my voice after a few rounds.
Thankfully, (for others) I don't drink of10.

And CJ - I welcome criticisms as a shark welcomes suckerfish. The skin is thick and may need cleaning from time to time.
I have an ample supply of troglodytic grunts and consider the definition #4 to be an appropriate assumption...(allowing for curmudgeon definition #2)...as I prefer to use words with more than one meaning.
This sometimes gives me the ability to be meaningly indifferent.

Oh, wonderful, gr8dane, because we had a question about southern prounciation recently. Does anyone remember what it was?

It has become a convention on this and the FOTA board not to pounce on simple errors in postings where the posting relates to general linguistic themes.

However, when the person submitting the article is being critical about another's grammar, then his or her critique is likely to be subject to intense scrutiny and, if appropriate, correction.

Your own misspelling of its is common since many people are aware that the word "it's" means "it is" or "it has" and is therefore not correct as a possessive. However, feeling that possessives must have an apostrophe, they put one in, forming the non-existent word "its'". The easy rule is that nouns take an apostrophe when forming possessives; pronouns do not (you would never, for example, use the word "hi's" to mean "belonging to him").

On the subject of whether I am right or wrong in my linguistic suggestions, it has been my frequent practice to ask for references where others cite a usage which I suggest is wrong. Such references are rarely forthcoming and, on those occasions where such are provided, on close inspection they usually make the point that the non-standard usage is "not recommended" or some such phrase.

Most recently this has been the case with the common US expression "irregardless" which some authorities I have seen accept as common, but all also suggest, wrong.

Richard English

we had a question about southern prounciation
recently. Does anyone remember what it was?
*****************************************
I don't remember the question, but you reminded me of the Georgia boat builder who threw a party. In the invitations he wrote, "Yawl come."

I'm reminded of the Georgia lad who, picking up his date for the prom, gallantly told her how wonderful her dress looked. "Sho 'nuf?", whispered this flower of southern femininity, batting her eyelashes. "Sho does," replied the blushing lad.

Putting several different slants on "liberal vs. conservative".

Then again there were the two young southern women getting their pictures taken together profesionally for the first time. One commented on how long the process was taking and the second explained, "Well, befo' he takes our picture, he has to focus."

"Boaf of us?!" was the startled reply.

The following are excerpts from the Y'allbonics/English

HEIDI - (noun) -Greeting.
HIRE YEW - Complete sentence. Remainder of greeting. Usage "Heidi, Hire yew?"
BARD - (verb) - Past tense of the infinitive "to borrow." Usage "My brother bard my pickup truck."
JAWJUH - (noun) - The state north of Florida. Capitol is Lanner. Usage "My brother from Jawjuh bard my pickup truck and tuckit ta Lanner."
BAMMER - (noun) - The state west of Jawjuh. Capitol is Berminhayum. Usage "A tornader jes went through Bammer an' left $20,000,000 in improvements."
MUNTS - (noun) - A calendar division. Usage "My brother from Jawjuh bard my pickup truck, and I ain't herd from him in munts."
THANK - (verb) - Cognitive process. Usage "Ah thank ah'll have a bare."
BARE - (noun) - An alcoholic beverage made of barley, hops, and yeast. Usage "Ah thank ah'll have a bare."
IGNERT - (adjective) - Not smart. See "Arkansas native." Usage "Them Bammer boys sure is ignert!"
RANCH - (noun) - A tool used for tight'nin' bolts. Usage "I thank I left my ranch in the back of that pickup truck my brother from Jawjuh bard a few munts ago."
ALL - (noun) - A petroleum-based lubricant. Usage "I sure hope my brother from Jawjuh puts all in my pickup truck."
FAR - (noun) - A conflagration. Usage "If my brother from Jawjuh don't change the all in my pickup truck, that thing's gonna catch far."
TAR - (noun) - A rubber wheel. Usage "Gee, I hope that brother of mine from Jawjuh don't git a flat tar in my pickup truck."
TIRE - (noun) - A tall monument. Usage "Lord willin' and the creek don't rise, I sure do hope to see that Eiffel Tire in Paris sometime."
RETARD - (verb) - To stop working. Usage "My grampaw retard at age 65."
FAT - (noun), (verb) - a battle or combat; to engage in battle or combat. Usage "You younguns keep fat'n, n' ah'm gonna whup y'uh."
RATS - (noun) - Entitled power or privilege. Usage "We Southerners are willin' to fat for are rats."
CHEER - (adverb) In this place. Usage "Just set that bare rat cheer."
FARN - (adjective) - Not domestic. Usage "I cuddint unnerstand a wurd he sed... must be from some farn country."
DID - (adjective) - Not alive. Usage "He's did, Jim."
ARE - (noun) - A colorless, odorless gas Oxygen. Usage "He cain't breathe...give 'im some ARE!"
BOB WAR - (noun) - A sharp, twisted cable. Usage "Boy, stay away from that bob war fence."
JEW HERE - (noun) and (verb) contraction. Usage "Jew here that my brother from Jawjuh got a job with that bob war fence cump'ny?"
HAZE - a contraction. Usage "Is Bubba smart?" "Nah...haze ignert. He ain't thanked but a minnit 'n'is laf."
SEED - (verb) - past tense of "to see".
VIEW - contraction (verb) and pronoun. Usage "I ain't never seed New York City... view?"
GUBMINT - (noun) - A bureaucratic institution. Usage "Them gubmint boys shore is ignert.

Copyrighted JA Enterprises, LLC. All rights reserved.

Of course, the correct way to address others leaving is G-bah yall.

Then there was the Yankee real estate salesman who showed the Southren Belle a very nice house, and said, "Here's a house without a flaw." She responded, "Weyull, theyun, what y'all walk on?"

Asa, who was born in South Carolina

Gr8dane, those terms are priceless!