Hello, hello! Yes, I know, it's been some time. I do apologize. And for those of you who may be thinking, "He's probably only here because he needs something," all I can say is, "How insightful!"

A question has come up on the OEDILF site in regards to the following:

Lady Godiva, none other
Than my great-great-great-great-great-grandmother,
Was my ancestress. She
Thought low taxes were key,
But the way she rode bareback? Oh, brother!

It has been pointed out that the "Was" in line 3 should be "Is" with the argument being once you're an ancestress, you're always an ancestress. My feeling is that once you become dead, that's pretty much your full time occupation and, as such, you unfortunately lose all claims upon the present tense.

Any thoughts, anyone?

Is would be correct. However, the rhythm of this limerick is atrocious. Sorry to be so direct, but it just limps and bumbles along.

The Times style guide has this to say about the word:

"Strictly means a person from whom another is directly descended, especially someone more distant than a grandparent. Do not use it in the looser sense of predecessor; eg. Queen Elizabeth I is not the ancestor of our present Queen."

Form which we can I think infer that "is" is correct, since The Times uses it in the negative.

Incidentally, as it might come as a surprise to some, the present house of Windsor (orginally Sax-Coburg) is not descended from the Tudors and is, in fact, relatively recent - although the Monarchy itself is much older.

And yes, I think that L2 is rather poor and I'll have to take a look at the workshopping!

Is.

But, oh boy... people had trouble with the rhythm in my limericks?

To be an ancestress it is pretty much taken for granted that she's dead. She is still an ancestress, and stays one. No need for was, therefore.

quote:

you unfortunately lose all claims upon the present tense.

Any thoughts, anyone?

One goes from "present tense" to "present limp?"

... followed a few hours later by present rigid.

Continuing states take, or can take, the present tense: DeFoe is famous for writing Robinson Crusoe, DeFoe is buried in Bunhill Fields. These states definitely continue into the present, and you can't use past 'was' without implying they've ceased to apply (he's no longer highly regarded; they've moved the body).

Then there are states/facts that could be regarded as applying as events to a certain definite time, or as still applying today since they haven't been superseded: DeFoe is/was the author of Robinson Crusoe; Henry VII is/was the first Tudor king.

Finally there are events that are only past, and though these are still true today, present truth is not sufficient for present applicability of the state: Henry VII died in 1509, DeFoe was born in [whenever].

There's a grammatical ambiguity in English: we can use a perfective form like 'is buried' as either an event verb or a state verb. 'DeFoe was buried in Bunhill Fields' can refer to an event that happened once after his funeral; or it can refer to a state that persisted after that event. Only in the latter case does 'was' imply it no longer holds (e.g. his remains were removed).

What to do, what to do...

Well, first off, thanks much for the answer to my question which, after all, was my reason for posting the limerick. I certainly didn't post it here because I thought it was great art since clearly it's not. Then again, I do believe that in regards to overall quality it is generally no worse than most of the limericks on both of our sites. I was, of course, hoping for more in the way of support for my position in this matter but your answers are reasonable and I am willing to make the change although, based on some recent workshopping on the other site, I remain unconvinced.

One of the workshop editors (in fact, the one who first brought this subject up and who now, it appears, is waffling a bit) brings up a very interesting point. One would say, "I am Grace Kelly's daughter" but, at the same time, "Grace Kelly was my mother," would also be correct. Seeing as how the lovely Ms Kelly is unfortunately no longer with us, the "was" is appropriate here by some rule of grammar that I cannot quote off the top of my head. Whatever the rule is, though, might it not apply to my ancestress as well?

Lastly, after long deliberation on the matter, without additional comment allow me to illustrate where the stresses in this relatively simple piece go for the benefit of anyone who may have difficulty reading it correctly:

LAdy goDIva, none OTHer
than my GREAT-great-great-GREAT-great-grandMOTHer,
was my ANcestress. SHE
thought low TAXes were KEY,
but the WAY she rode BAREback? Oh, BROther!

See? Easy as that.


Ref the "was/is" question, I'll keep an open mind on this point although I will admit I'm leaning towards the "was" side at the moment. I'm curious as to what you all might say regarding the Princess Grace example.

Thanks again.

Thank you, Aput, for your very reasonable outline of the facts at hand. We were simulposting there or I would have answered your post in mine. In short, your fourth (of five) paragraph appears to answer my question regarding, "Grace Kelly was my mother." I'll make the change to "is."

There are several fine lines involved here but I think I see them now and will go and sin no more. This sin, anyway. (And even that's conditional on me not forgetting today's lesson which, perfection never being my long suit, is no guarantee.)

Thanks much.

Just a minute, CJ

quote:

And even that's conditional on me not forgetting

Some of my English teachers have claimed that a noun or pronoun modifying a gerund is possessive, as in "... conditional on my not forgetting."

Comments?

quote:

Originally posted by Chris J. Strolin:
allow me to illustrate where the stresses in this relatively simple piece go for the benefit of anyone who may have difficulty reading it correctly.

It's said that if you have to explain a joke you've told, your telling needs improvement. So too, if you have to explain the meter, then it isn't falling naturally, at least to some readers, and could bear [bare? ] improvement.

In this case, in the multiple 'greats' there is no cue to where the stress should fall, unless the reader is already thinking in limerick beat. And a reader is apt to emphasis "thought'.

The former can be mended by changing 'great-great-great-great-great-grandmother' to grandmother's great-grandma's mother or, if you prefer, to grandma's great-grandmother's mother. The latter is a bit more difficult to deal with.

quote:

Hello, hello! Yes, I know, it's been some time.

Well, how good to see you again! We have missed you!

It seems we wordcrafters can't keep ourselves from workshopping, doesn't it? I also think it's interesting how different people see limericks differently; I've noticed this on OEDILF, too. I liked lines 1 & 2, though I bumbled a bit on the rest. Yet, CJ's explanation works for me. I do wonder what some of the OEDILF pedants will think of the rhythm, though.

With wordcraft's formidable Brits, as well as Jo, all siding with "is," I'd bet the farm it is correct.

I do like that word simulpost, I must admit. When we get to the s's, I want to write the limerick on that word!

I got the stress (as you outlined it) after multiple tries but it wasn't the "greats" that gave me problem - it was "ancestress, she" which even once I figured it out I found (and find ) difficult to say correctly as my accent naturally hits the stress as an-CEST-ress and my mouth refuses to do anything else unless I concentrate very hard.

I suggested,for L2, "My many times great, geat-grandmother".

This sorts the stress and removes any possible doubt as to whether the number of greats is accurate.

For the record I like the greats. They're great.

For the record, I like the "greats," too. I wrote a similar limerick, here I think, though I can't find it.

quote:

difficult to say correctly as my accent naturally hits the stress as an-CEST-ress and my mouth refuses to do anything else unless I concentrate very hard.

Bob, I had the same problem, until I looked up the pronunciation and actually heard it being pronounced in the Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary. I like that aspect of the Webster's Online dictionary.

Ref the pronunciation of "ancestress," I totally agree that it ought to be "an-CESS-tress" and that's exactly how I had it in the first version of this piece. With lines 1, 2, and 5 the same, the middle part went:

Threw her husband a curve
(My ancestress had nerve!)

but my error was pointed out to me in the workshopping of this piece. I searched but couldn't even find a dictionary that would list a 2nd-syllable stress as an alternate pronunciation.

Ref all the greats, it's not surprising Bob Hale likes them seeing as how they were inspired by a character in one of the "Alice" books who quizzes Alice on her grasp of addition with the question, "What is one and one and one (then very quickly) and-one-and-one-and-one-and-one-and-one." When Alice loses track, she is informed that she has a poor head for math. Similar thing here. I just like saying the word "great" five times in one line.

And lastly, ref stresses, yes, I do depend on the reader to understand the rhythm of a limerick on this one. The best limericks do not depend on this but this is decidedly not one of my or our best. We have what we call Author Showcases in which writers may place a certain percentage of what they feel is their best work. I'm pleased enough with this one as the pleasant little number it is, but Showcase material it ain't.

Thanks again for your help.