There was a column in the Tribune this morning about a peevologist 6th grade teacher. She talks about the grammar errors on facebook, and I am sure there are many. However, this was the one sentence she took issue with:

"John found a lonely pink pig on their farm."

quote:

"Their" is plural, you dunces. It goes with a plural noun. Not with "everybody." Not with one person's name. Got it?

Then the discussion ensues about how even Quinion supports using "their" as single these days, and I know we've talked about it. That's not my question.

Here is what I am wondering...couldn't the sentence mean that John found the pig on his and his wife's farm, thus "their" would be completely appropriate? Or am I missing some other grammatical nuance? That's actually the way I took it in the first place.

Here is what I am wondering...couldn't the sentence mean that John found the pig on his and his wife's farm, thus "their" would be completely appropriate? Or am I missing some other grammatical nuance? That's actually the way I took it in the first place.

Except that's not how Facebook uses it. Facebook consistently uses the singular generic they on its pages with single users, so that, if the user has not specified their gender when registering, Facebook won't assign the wrong one. This is a classic case of the continued use of singular generic they since Chaucer's time. I submit the peeved 6th grade teacher doesn't know English grammar from a hole in the ground, but then I suppose you get what you pay for.

"John found a lonely pink pig on their farm."

To me, that sentence can only mean that John found a pig on his and his wife's farm, that is John is not the antecendent of their. I don't know anything about the context but I would guess that's what it was intended to mean. Singular "they/their" is not standard (or at least, not part of my language) when the antecendent is a unique individual with a known gender. See Pullum's discussion of these sentences:

1. Do not speak to the driver or distract their attention without good cause.
2. *Do not speak to the king or distract their attention without good cause.

Without a context it's impossible to tell anything about the sentence. It could just as easily be - "They visited uncle Bill and aunt Mary. John found a lonely pink pig on their farm."

I don't know anything about the context but I would guess that's what it was intended to mean.

That's not what it means in the context of how facebook uses pronouns. Theirs in that context means a third person singular non-gender specific pronoun.

[Fixed typo. And then fixed another.]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: zmježd,

quote:

Originally posted by zmježd:
I don't know anything about the context but I would guess that's what it was intended to mean.

That's not what it means in the contxt of how facebook uses pronouns. Theirs inj that context means a third person singular non-gender specific pronoun.

Yeah I know, but this sentence is from some Facebook quiz or something. No context is given.

quote:

That's not what it means in the contxt of how facebook uses pronouns.

I don't think you can lump all facebook submissions together, z. Before assuming the whole non-gender pronoun thing, I'd have to know the context. I have added a comment to that effect in the comment section that appears after that article.

The reason I don't think "their" is meant to be a singular pronoun is because the subject of the sentence is John. Most Johns are male. Wouldn't it have been quite easy to say "his" farm? That's why I immediately assumed it meant his and his wife's (or the family's down the street) farm. Now had it said "The student found a lonely pink pig on their farm," it more likely would have been a singular pronoun, though it would have been more ambiguous.

this sentence is from some Facebook quiz or something

If it's a quiz or other kind of application, then it's a third party and not Facebook. who is responsible.

The reason I don't think "their" is meant to be a singular pronoun is because the subject of the sentence is John. Most Johns are male.

Yeah, but Facebook is a bunch of software. It does not know that John is a male name. It generates a bunch of sentences like "Sydney changed their status".

On the other hand, I agree that if a human generated the sentence in question, I would interpret it as their meaning John and the co-owner of the farm.

The absence of a neuter singular personal pronoun in English can be a nuisance and I personally don't like to press the plural pronoun into use to fill that gap. It is usually possible, by re-writing, to avoid agreeing "they" with a singular.

And if Chaucer were around these days I would tell him so.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard English:
The absence of a neuter singular personal pronoun in English can be a nuisance and I personally don't like to press the plural pronoun into use to fill that gap. It is usually possible, by re-writing, to avoid agreeing "they" with a singular.

They is syntactically plural, but it can be semantically singular. This is a fact of English. Here's more evidence demonstrating that semantic plurality and morphosyntactic singularity are compatible in English.

As I have written previously, it does seem that the third person plural is now being commonly used as the third person singular - and I agree that there seems as much justification for this shift as there was for the second person plural to usurp the second person singular.

I wonder whether the pronouns "he" and "she" will eventually go the way of "thou" and "thee"? We don't usually seem to have any confusion between "you" singular and "you" plural so I suppose it's quite likely to happen.

Returning to this thread after a year. The context has become a lot clearer to me. It is fairly obvious that the sentence comes from a Facebook game, probably FarmVille. The game's programmers decided to use their as a singular pronoun standing in for his or her when the user hadn't specified a gender, as zmj has said. It reads oddly to us as John is a male name, but even humans have problems with names that are not immediately identifiable as male or female, such as Lesley, Jo, and so on.

The use of they/their in place of the singular is a common pet peeve of such people. We use you for both singular and plural, so why not they?

Didn't notice this was a year-old thread until Arnie pointed it out, but yes, this is definitely a news-feed notice from the Facebook game, Farmville. I don't play Farmville myself, but I do play Cafe World, and I always take great pains not to "publish" notices that say I have just cooked a perfect dish in Cafe world or some such. I've also specified my gender in my FB info, so if there are news feed items about me, they always refer to me as "she" and "her." People who are afraid specifying a gender will make them more identifiable (!) are always referred to as "they" and "their."

WM

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I always take great pains not to "publish" notices that say I have just cooked a perfect dish in Cafe world or some such.

Any security reason, or do you just not want your FB wall cluttered up with game announcements?

reasons

I don't let apps (like those quizzes and such) on FaceBook spam out to my friends. I never got into the sim games, but a lot of my friends do seem to enjoy them.