I had wondered about the origin of "throwing the baby out with the bath water" and read this report about it. The word Leitmotif, which I haven't heard of, came up in the discussion. In reading about it in a number of sites, I found that it is a melodic passage or phrase, especially in Wagnerian opera, though at least as old as Mozart. Here is an etymology of it:
quote:
1876, "a musical figure to which some definite meaning is attached," from Ger. Leitmotiv, lit. "lead motive," from leiten "to lead" + Motiv "motive." A term associated with Wagnerian musical drama, though the thing itself is at least as old as Mozart. "The leitmotif must be characteristic of the person or thing it is intended to represent." ["Elson's Music Dictionary"]
However, another definition is a dominant and recurring theme, as in a novel. Have you seen the word used that way?
Originally posted by Kalleh: However, another definition is a dominant and recurring theme, as in a novel. Have you seen the word used that way?
No, I can't say I have heard the word used in that way. In fact, I can't say I've ever heard the word before. Here's what the OED Online has to say:
quote:
leitmotiv Mus. Also -motif, -motive . [Ger., f. leit- leading- + motiv MOTIVE.]
In the musical drama of Wagner and his imitators, a theme associated throughout the work with a particular person, situation, or sentiment. Also in extended use.
1876 STAINER & BARRETT Dict. Mus. Terms, Leitmotif. 1880 PARRY in Grove Dict. Mus. II. 115/2 When these situations recur, or the personages come forward in the course of the action, or even when the personage or idea is implied or referred to, the figure which constitutes the leit-motif is heard. 1881 F. HUEFFER Wagner (1883) 120 Another feature of the score of Parsifal is the variety and number of its representative themes, or ‘leit-motives’. 1896 H. ELLIS in Savoy I. 70 Zola..introduced this sort of leit-motiv into literature. 1898 G. MEREDITH Let. 6 July (1970) III. 1303, I long to hear from him of [the] Leit~motif—though indeed he has taken the world more or less into his confidence. 1899 KIPLING 84 A tune whose leit-motif was the word ‘stinker’. 1912 WODEHOUSE Prince & Betty iv. 61 The name Scobell had been recurring like a leit motif in Mr Crump's conversation. 1937 KOESTLER Spanish Testament iv. 94 It provides the leitmotif of German foreign policy in Spain. 1955Times 28 May 8/4 But the method remains, the orchestral tapestry of leitmotifs is more resplendent than ever, the drama is even more closely knit into the texture of sound. 1970 G. GREER Female Eunuch 151 Self-sacrifice is the leit-motif of most of the marital games played by women. 1972Composer & Conductor Aug. 1/1 Ninety-nine music graduates out of a hundred..will say that the Leitmotiv (or Leitmotif, or leading motive)..was invented by Wagner. Wrong... The correct answer is: Friedrich Wilhelm Jähns, and even he applied it not to Wagner but to Weber. 1974Times Lit. Suppl. 15 Feb. 162/4 There are plenty of leitmotivs which recur time and time again.
This section does not cite any references or sources.
Leitmotif can refer to the significant repetition of any element in a book, play, novel, film, or other artistic works. In literature, a leitmotif is used as a recurring event, image, object or character in a story, poem or play. Leitmotifs (or motifs) become significant to the meaning of the overall work when they develop thematic importance. In film, a motif is most frequently a plot device, image, character trait, or element of the mise en scène.
I thought we had previously discussed "throwing the baby out with the bath water," but a search showed only one mention of it, in "Wives" on February 09, 2003. The link to the "Hagar the Horrible" cartoon I posted (October 24, 2004) doesn't work anymore, but this one does.This message has been edited. Last edited by: tinman,
Yes, I've seen it used in that way. I believe the lit crit folks got it from the folklore folks. There is a 6-volume reference book by Stith Thompson Motif-Index of Folk-Literature (1932–37).
I too have heard it in both musical and literary discussions. Maybe one hears it in the USA in such cities as Portland and San Francisco more than in other places because they both have lots of writers and classical music radio stations.
It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. -J. Krishnamurti
Yes, I've heard it, especially in reference to musical themes, and also as an English major in college suffering through endless erudite literary criticisms and analyses. And where I heard it first was Cincinnati
My favorite leitmotifs are things like the DUN-dun DUN-dun DUN-dun that you hear just before the shark tears somebody's leg off in JAWS, or the haunting violin music in "Young Frankenstein" that is the Gene Wilder character's theme, or the way the name "Frau Blucher" makes the horse whinny in terror. (That's because I have such high-class tastes, being from Cincinnati, Geoff. )
Wordmatic
Posts: 1390 | Location: Near Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
Many years ago, when Jaws II was making the second-run circuit, my wife and I went to a small local threater to see it. While we waited for the movie to start, we were accosted by the owner's cat, which jumped in our lap looking for popcorn. The cat transited the theater, getting something from everyone.
The movie started with scuba divers checking the wrect from the first movie and, as this sequence began, two woman sat down near us, munching on popcorn. The Dundun DundunDundun Dundun began and just before the shark struck, both women screamed, tossing popcorn in the air. Everyone thought the movie scared them but it was the cat. It decided to get fed at just that moment and leaped onto one woman's lap.
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