Elsewhere, we have this conversation between Kalleh (red) and arnie (blue):

Most American-made cars are shmattehs anyway.
I thought I knew it, but maybe not. I thought it meant something like an old rag. Kalleh's remark is obviously uncomplimentary to American cars, so perhaps it also has an extended meaning
Well, it does mean "old rag," arnie. But as you say, the meaning is extended to mean "anything worthless." (citing an on-line Yiddish glossary)

I'd have disagreed with Kalleh, but the authorities seem to be split. AHD gives no extended sense, but OED does, and in fact OED's first quote uses the word in an extended sense. (AHD: 1. A rag. 2. An old or ragged garment. OED: A rag, a ragged garment; any garment. Also fig.. 1970 A 1969 sale catalog of the Ktav Publishing Company, New York book dealers, listed Philip Roth's licentious novel Portnoy's Complaint with the comment: ‘A shmatte.’)

OK, at least someone has used an extended sense. But is this common enough to be considered part of the definition? A bit of research, perhaps?

Weinreich: שמאטע (shmate) 'rag, tatters' and שמאטעדיק (shmatedik) 'ragged'.

Harkavy: שמאטניק (shmatnik) 'dealer in rags, rag-man' and שמאטע (shmate) 'rag; (fig.) soft-hearted person'.

Noyekh Miller, Mendele 2.120, "So, whereas in the theatre days she would come home with reviews that ranged from shmate through als heyst a shmate to shmate sh'b'shmate, her movie reviews ranged from a groys teler (pretty good film), through a tchoshke (so-so) to a kleyn telerl (terrible)."

Sidney Belmen, Mendele 8.137: "Tsar Nikolay

Tsar Nikolay, Tsar Nikolay,
zog mir mit vemen host du khasene gehat.
A kurve, a shmate, an oysgetrente late,
Zog mir mit vemen host du khasene gehat.

Dort in gas shteyt zi,
Und mit dem toches dreyt zi,
Zog mir mit vemen host du khasene gehat."

(Czar Nicholas

Czar Nicholas, Czar Nicholas,
Tell me, whom did you marry?
A whore, a rag, a well-worn patch,
Tell me, whom did you marry?

There in the alley she stands,
And she attracts with her arse,
Tell me, whom did you marry?

quote:

AHD gives no extended sense, but OED does, and in fact OED's first quote uses the word in an extended sense.

I always have preferred the OED to AHD. [I thought Portnoy's Complaint was fun...not good literature, but worth a read.]

In all fairness, Shu, I wanted to use a Yiddish word there and almost made up my own. I finally went with schmatte, knowing it wasn't perfect. I also knew that someone would bring up my use of it, so I found a cite to support me (before I used it). I think the word should be used for clothing/rags and the like.

quote:

Originally posted by zmježd:

Und mit dem toches dreyt zi,



And she attracts with her arse,

I had long thought that "toches" was less naughty than "arse" or "ass." Is this not so?

I had long thought that "toches" was less naughty than "arse" or "ass." Is this not so?

You're right. I hesitated over just translating it as 'butt', but went for the stronger English word. It's actually quite euphemistic in Hebrew, meaning 'under, beneath'. So, maybe 'rear-end' would be a better rendering. Weinreich (the later dictionary) doesn't list it, but Harkavy does.

quote:

(shmatnik) 'dealer in rags, rag-man'

This seems Russian-based, with the "nik" suffix. Is it? If so, how does one translate "Sputnik?" I've never seen the meaning of the first artificial satellite.

quote:

Originally posted by zmježd:


You're right. I hesitated over just translating it as 'butt', but went for the stronger English word.

Kinda like using "cul" in French as opposed to "derriere," then. Yet "cul" can be a very proper word, as in cul-de-sac. It's no wonder translation software isn't yet perfected!

Uhhh, I'm reminded of the Irish whore who moved to France and became known as the Londonderriere.

This seems Russian-based, with the "nik" suffix. Is it?

Pretty much standard Slavic nominal agentive suffix. Might be from Polish or Belorussian. -nij in Russian is an adjectival suffix. The -k is added (with the final -j being dropped), and you get -nik. It's been borrowed into English, e.g., beatnik, nogoodnik, refusenik. Sputnik means 'fellow traveler' < s- 'together' (like the Latin com-, Greek sun-) + put' 'path, way' < PIE *pent- 'to tread, go'. Refusenik is interesting, because it translates Russian otkaznik (otkaz 'refusal') part-way, but since -nik has been naturalized in English it was left standing.