Are peignoirs and negligees synonyms? I always considered both of them to be sexy ladies' nightgowns; however, the the definitions for both of them are "loose fitting dressing gowns." I suppose that could be sexy. On the other hand, isn't a gunny sack loose fitting?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,

Without looking anything up, I would say that peignoirs are those sets of gown and cover, neither of which really covers the lady. It's sexy, but more demure, somehow, than what I would call a negligee.

Odd that they'd be called, "dressing gowns," when the intent is to be UNdressed.

What's interesting is how they went from meaning dressing gown to meaning sexy night gown. Peignoir is related to French peigner 'to comb' and was originally a gown worn while combing one's hair. Straying over to men's nightwear, we have night-shirts (and night-caps) and then pajamas which, like shirts, are daytime clothes (in India kurta-pajama).

Negligé in French means 'negligent'. For a while the ladies' fashion was to appear that they didn't care how they looked. "Oh, this old thing? It's just something I threw on." Hence negligée.

Interesting etymology! Zmj, I had seen that peignoir comes from "comb," but I didn't know why. CW, I don't know about you, but I surely don't have a special gown for combing my hair! BTW, I do think you are right, CW, about the differences between the two nightgowns. Usually a peignoir comes in a set, and that negligee is a little less demure, as you said. I just thought it strange that the dictionaries didn't define them that way.

If it weren't for films and TV, where all bed occupants are shown wearing very concealing nightwear, I suspect that the sales of such garments would be far lower. Indeed, maybe it's only wardrobing companies that ever buy them ;-)

I would never consider wearing anything in bed - and wouldn't want any partner of mine to do so either.

We had a song we sang at camp when I was a kid . . .and I would imagine they still sing it . . . set to the tune of "The Battle Hymn of the Republic"

I wear my pink pyjamas in the Summer when it's hot
And I wear my woolen undies in the Winter when it's not
And sometimes in the Springtime and sometimes in the Fall
I go to bed with NOTHIN' ON AT ALL!

Glory, glory what's it too ya
Glory, glory what's it too ya
Glory, glory what's it too ya
I go to bed with NOTHIN' ON AT ALL!

:-)

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CW, I don't know about you, but I surely don't have a special gown for combing my hair!

Oh, yes, of course I do! I have a gown for brushing my teeth . . . a gown for doing the laundry . . . a gown for combing my hair . . . an my personal valet, Raoul, keeps them all hanging neatly in my dressing room when not in use.
*cough* NOT! *cough*

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I would never consider wearing anything in bed - and wouldn't want any partner of mine to do so either.

So much for that world-famous British Reserve.

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So much for that world-famous British Reserve.

Well, there are 50 million of us and we must have gotten here somehow...

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Originally posted by Richard English:

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So much for that world-famous British Reserve.

Well, there are 50 million of us and we must have gotten here somehow...

And a hell of a lot of descendants throughout the world!
One thing that occasionally bugs me in US books and films is the suggestion that the English are gay, a recent example being a line in a book I read recently "He had one of those fag British accents..." (Then he wrote the character with a cod Dick Van Dyke Cockney accent- "Cor luvaduck!" etc,aaaagh!).
Anyway as the English have descendants (and present day immigrants, come to that) throughout the world in some numbers- I read once that 25% of the US population is descended from English stock- the one thing we seem to be able to do is propagate ourselves!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Erik Johansen,

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One thing that occasionally bugs me in US books and films is the suggestion that the English are gay,

I think many of us are - in the correct sense of the word - though not in the sense that has been attributed to the word by the homosexual community.

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One thing that occasionally bugs me in US books and films is the suggestion that the English are gay

It's a new empire, old empire thing. The Greeks thought the Persians effete; the Romans thought the Greeks effete; British think the French and Italians effete; Americans think the British effete. No doubt the Chinese consider Americans effete.

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I read once that 25% of the US population is descended from English stock- the one thing we seem to be able to do is propagate ourselves!

Since my family name is Sanders, you might just have a point! OTOH, my mother's family is Latham and Burgess, and there's a Peterson on my father's side, so I figure it's those lusty Irish and Swedes wot got me here!

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"He had one of those fag British accents..."

I haven't ever noticed that about U.S. books and films, though I suppose I don't see that many films. I think men from the U.K. are portrayed as sexy, articulate, intelligent, and polite.

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Are peignoirs and negligees synonyms?

In honor of Valentine's Day, I shall now conduct a detailed, hands-on personal investigation.

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I think men from the U.K. are portrayed as sexy, articulate, intelligent, and polite.

Which of course we are.

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Originally posted by neveu:

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One thing that occasionally bugs me in US books and films is the suggestion that the English are gay

It's a new empire, old empire thing. The Greeks thought the Persians effete; the Romans thought the Greeks effete; British think the French and Italians effete; Americans think the British effete. No doubt the Chinese consider Americans effete.

I think you've nailed it on the head there- that a person with an English accent is somehow effete- it's obviously meant to be insulting, whereas Kalleh thinks we're wonderful- which we are of course! The idea that we're somehow limp wristed doesn't ring particularly true when you see most Englishmen on their home turf, especially clutching a pint (of the finest real ale of course!).

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The idea that we're somehow limp wristed doesn't ring particularly true when you see most Englishmen on their home turf, especially clutching a pint (of the finest real ale of course!).

That being said, there's no shortage famous British homosexuals. And it wasn't an American who summarized the traditions of the British Navy as "rum, buggery and the lash".

We all have our own experiences. Mine must be very different from neveu's and Erik's. In my experiences, that connotation of British men being effete just isn't true. I wasn't trying to "brownie up" to our in-house British men here. It's completely what I've seen. For instance, I was in an elevator once with a lot of my nurse colleagues and one man. As soon as he said what floor he wanted, we all knew he was British. Suddenly all the women started oohing and ahhhing over his accent and his being British, and they were all flirting shamelessly. That has always been my experience.

Perhaps, though, it's different with American men and women. Maybe American men are slightly jealous?

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and they were all flirting shamelessly

Of course, they were in an elevator and leaving in a few seconds - so no danger there that the poor defencelss chap could take advantage of the opportunity. I'll bet they'd not be so forward had it been in, say, a bar.

But that's women for you the world over;-)

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Originally posted by neveu:

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The idea that we're somehow limp wristed doesn't ring particularly true when you see most Englishmen on their home turf, especially clutching a pint (of the finest real ale of course!).

That being said, there's no shortage famous British homosexuals. And it wasn't an American who summarized the traditions of the British Navy as "rum, buggery and the lash".

Right, first of all, I've just come back from he pub, so forgive me if it tends to make little sense at times!
One thing that's puzzled me for years is precisely why homosexuals are often such talented people, frequently in the performing Arts such as Theatre, Film and Music. Kinsey said, though I believe his findings are now discredited, that 1 in 20 of the population arte homosexual, but there certainly seems many more than that in those fields. Why is this, I wonder? Is it because of the desire to perform, to show your worth? Or the opportunity to be flamboyant? Or is it the opprtunity to hide as someone else?
I've moved people- I'm a furniture mover- for 23 years now- White, Black, Asian, Jewish, Lesbian, Homosexual, etc. and I have to admit that frequently homosexuals of both sexes are often talented people.
Me? I'm straight. And staggeringly mediochre at virtually everything!

The spelling in the above post is bloody awful- sorry!
Neveu, as far as I can tell the only difference between the UK and the USA is that the UK actors and musicians were able to admit their homosexuality whereas it was usually kept secret over there- Rock Hudson and Montgomery Clift spring to mind, perhaps it's a cultural thing as we seem to have a 'live and let live' attitude over here- the UK is still a very tolerant society. An American friend of mine who lives over here couldn't believe how many complete whackos- just being politically correct here!- were wandering around my home town, completely accepted by the natives. "Man" he said, "We lock people like that up!".

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Right, first of all, I've just come back from he pub,

Hmmm, you seem to say that a lot!

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And staggeringly mediochre at virtually everything!

I think you are outstanding in beer drinking!

I suspect that the arts draw introverts and give them "permission" to be extroverts, so it's a safe vehicle for someone who is introspective and has a strongly developed sexual opposite, or anima/animus, in Jungian terms. Just a guess, mind you.

Asa the also mediocre

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An American friend of mine who lives over here couldn't believe how many complete whackos- just being politically correct here!- were wandering around my home town, completely accepted by the natives. "Man" he said, "We lock people like that up!".

That's why we all moved to San Francisco.

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That's why we all moved to San Francisco.

Not quite all. As our new poster Froeschlein, who used to live here in Portland can attest, there are bumper stickers here that read, "Keep Portland Weird!"

Yes, I have always said that Portland is a miniature San Francisco.

I'm not sure why people who are gay tend to be more artistic, but I think it has to do with sensitivity. I used to teach with a professor who is gay. If I changed my hair or had a new pair of shoes or a new blouse, he'd always notice. Heck, even my female colleagues didn't notice, and God knows my husband didn't.

Knew I'd spelt 'mediocre' wrong, but for the life of me couldn't work out why! Yes, Kalleh I do like the odd beer I'll admit, both mostly confine my forays out to Friday and Sunday evenings and the odd Monday. I don't like Saturday evenings as they're too busy and I can't be bothered pushing through hundreds of people in a bar.
Asa Lovejoy- you're probably right in the fact that it gives them the freedom to be flamboyant- but doesn't answer why there is a need to be- are there no quiet, introspective gays or is it just that we notice the noisy colourful ones? I once moved a theatre director to Brighton (Which all the British here will understand why!) who was one of the greatest characters I've ever met- he was a walking cliche, straight out of a farce, camp as a row of tents, but very entertaining, I must admit I thought he should perhaps be on stage rather than directing!

EJ, there are stereotypes on both sides. Look how Ahhnold Swartzenegger flaunts his "macho" stereotype: driving a Hummer, sucking on big, fat cancer sticks, and calling those not like him "girly men." If homosexuals flaunt their stereotypes, what's the difference? And of course there are "type-A" and "type-B" personalities regardless of sexual orientation. For a hilarious look at male stereotyping, see the obscure movie, "Cannibal Women in The Avacado Jungle of Death." It helps if you're familiar with Southern California, but even if you're not, it's plenty funny!

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are there no quiet, introspective gays or is it just that we notice the noisy colourful ones?

There's all kinds. Come to San Francisco and we'll have a pint at the Twin Peaks.

Sorry I've been away from this fascinating discussion for so long!

I'd have to say, from my experience (living in one of the top-rated cities for gays to live in the US), that there are people of all sexual persuasions who have talent, and equally those who have very little talent. It's just that actors and other public performers get the limelight. Those with little or no performing genius generally don't get onto the wires.

Rock Hudson and Montgomery Clift are OLD performers who were working in a world very different from today. I would have to say that Generation X and subsequent groups of people would not, for the most part, judge someone better or worse depending on their sexual orienation. Thankfully, we live in a much more open and accepting society.

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we live in a much more open and accepting society.

While we don't burn people at the stake around here nowadays, there seems to be a very strong undertow of Calvinism, and they DO burn folks at the stake for not being like them.

I have to agree with Asa on that. Look at the recent, very serious, discussion about a Constitutional amendment that would prohibit gay marriages.

I am in a profession where there are a lot of gay men and women. They are the same, really, as any other people I know. Generally the only difference I've really noticed is the sensitivity that I mentioned above. The men, for example, seem to like to shop more than other men do, and they are more interested in their looks or in noticing the looks of others. I have a gay friend who sees a cosmotologist every 4 weeks, an aesthetist every 6 weeks, along with a hair dresser every 4 weeks. I hadn't even heard of an aesthetist before I met him.

Neveu, you're on...as long as they have good beer!