From the Wall Street Journal of last Thursday:

Over the centuries, Europe has given the world some of its finest foods. Now it want their names back.

If European negotiators at the Word Trade Organization get their way, food names associated with specific regions – from the United Kingdom's cheddar cheese to the Czech Republic's pilsner beer to Italy's balsamic vinegar – would be reserved solely for companies located there. With a number of developing countries following the EU's lead, it could mean hundreds if not thousands of products made in places such as the U.S. and Australia would have to be renamed.

Europe has a has a strong example for its food-branding ambitions. In 1995, the world's major trading nations agreed on rules for wines and spirits that prevent, for example, Californian and Australian sparkling-wine makers from calling their products "Champagne" when sold outside their home counties. Only bubbly from a northeast corner of France can call itself Champagne globally. The EU already has adopted geographic-indication laws governing nearly 600 products sold inside the EU.

It all adds up to a horrifying picture for retail groups and trade officials outside Europe, who fear mass consumer confusion and protracted legal fights over how to rename all their goods. This is to say nothing of the damage to companies that stand to see the identities of some of their most popular products erased. Says Canada's ambassador to the WTO, "This is about making a monopoly of trade. It's hard to even calculate the confusion of such a thing." Some even make the argument that New World producers have earned the right to use these names. Huge companies are the ones who have marketed and built up the value of many of the product names the Europeans now want to protect, they say.

Should the Europeans prevail, non-native food makers would have to come up with totally new names for many household staples. Europe is opposed to words like "-style" or "imitation" on labels. They want the knockoffs to be called something completely different.

Have they considered the possibilities of retaliation? If we were, for example, to insist that all English vocabulary relating to baseball was to be restricted to the states, even Europeans who don't know a double play from a ballpark frank would find themselves tounge tied!

Of all the causes in the world so worthwhile for one to put one's effort into, they want to argue about this. How do you say "Bite me!" in French?

CJ, I disagree. I have no respect for a US stumpwater company trying to enjoin the real Budweiser from using their name! To be sure, much of this is redolent of the previous French effort to prevent "Franglais" from spreading, which was silly, but I firmly believe that a product that has built upon the original's identity is ripping off the originator, and should be stopped.

Alors, CJ, continuez le branlage!

If this were the case here, then maybe the rest of the world would start calling Buffalo Wings by their correct name! (Call 'em chicken wings folks. Buffalos don't have wings!)

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Have they considered the possibilities of retaliation? If we were, for example, to insist that all English vocabulary relating to baseball was to be restricted to the states, even Europeans who don't know a double play from a ballpark frank would find themselves tounge tied!

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To be quite frank, CJ, I don't think they would be that tongue-tied at all. First of all, Europeans have their own terms for things like that (usually from soccer) in their own languages!

In any case, borrowing from other languages is inevitable and can't be limited by the rules that apply in the world of retail and marketing. I think the names of foods from a certain region should be able to claim that name as their own. Anyone wanting to copy it can find a name of their own and it's up to them to make it popular. I want to be sure the feta cheese I'm buying is from Greece and not a substitute produced in Denmark.

Europeans have their own terms for things like that (usually from soccer)
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You mean football? REAL football, and not the modified rugby that we in the USA incorrectly call football?

It was, of course, the French (that most chauvinistic of nations), who insisted that sparkling wine could only be called Champagne if it came from the Champagne region. European Law is on their side and an English producer of "Elderflower Champagne" was sued over his namaing. What the French keep very quiet about, though, is the the first recorded instance of sparkling wine production was not, as they like everyone to believe, Dom Perignon's effort - but an earlier (successful) attempt - in England!

Richard English

Although I couldn't give one example of vocabulary from baseball I am proud to say that I do know what Baseball is. It's very similar to the English junior school game that we call Rounders.

And if those responsible for the Baseball World Series were to allow competitors from that substantial part of the world that is not the USA to compete, then it's possible I might even get to know more about it.

Richard English

Of course over here the French (well the European Union actually) are well known fot this kind of thing. We can't call Brussels Sprouts by that name if they are not grown in Brussels, ice-cream cannot be ice-cream unless it contains cream and so on. Those of us who oppose the putative United States of Europe are villified for pointing out this kind of nonsense while those who support it conveniently ignore it.

Vescere bracis meis.

Read all about my travels around the world here.

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And if those responsible for the Baseball World Series were to allow competitors from that substantial part of the world that is not the U.S.A. to compete, then it is possible I might even get to know more about it.

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I assume that Richard's focus here is on the use of the word "World" in "World Series" and that he deems its use inappropriate.

I have often heard that the "World" in "World Series" refers to the New York World newspaper which is supposed to have sponsored the first World Series in 1903 and to have named the series after itself. This story has often been told by sports journalists. I once heard it related by (I believe) Joe Garragiola on a national T.V. broadcast of the Series. So I figured that it was correct, but I thought I'd check it out before passing it on.

The Baseball Hall of Fame says it's a myth. I gotta believe 'em. Richard appears to be on solid ground if he's saying that "World Series" is an inappropriate term.

This board has really opened my eyes to the foul reputation that we Americans have abroad. It is very unsettling, though it does seem well-deserved. We seem to be arrogant enough to believe that everyone is envious of us. The World Series point is a good one, and I had never thought of it before.

I believed that story about the world series being named after a newspaper. Just think of all the winding up opportunities I have lost.

Anyway, may I say that I love the EU and wish they could come up with more 'laws' on food terminology, but only as long is doesn't divert them from measuring the bendiness of bananas, or denying the UK chocolate-producing status.

OK, several points...


"The World Series" is simply an example of hyperbole. When it was coined, all the teams elligible (or, for the most part, even interested) in participating were in the states. The entire "world of baseball" was, in effect, competing. (While stationed in Germany, I once directed an improvisational theatre troupe which I took on a tour of U.S. bases in that country. We called it our "World Tour" since Germany was, after all, a part of the world. Same idea.)

Secondly, Canada is now elligible and has, in fact, won a World Series.

Thirdly, I don't hear anyone complaining about the unfairness of us puny earthlings holding "Miss Universe" contests and then having the audacity of refusing to let compete just any Plutonian Slime Mold with their $10 entry fee and a swimsuit!

Lastly, the biggie. While I certainly will apologize if I can be shown to be wrong, I truly do believe that there are more sports metaphors in the English language that spring directly from the world of baseball than from any other sport. One might almost stretch the point and say from all the other sports combined. Just off the top of my head, there are:

I struck out with her.
He's really swinging for the fences.
The main guy is unavailable. I'm going to pinch-hit for him.
I got to second base with her on the first date. (What a man I am!)
He got to third base with her on the first date. (What a slut she is!)
He really hit a homer with that idea of his.
I can't grab a beer with you today. I'll have to take a rain check.
He's grandstanding again.
He really threw me a curve that time.
She balked at my proposal.
I'm really out in left field on this project.
He's a real switch-hitter. (which could mean either that he's multi-talented or that he's gay so be careful how you use this one)
It's my turn at bat.
I'm in the on-deck circle.
He's a real foul ball.
Don't forget to touch all the bases!
Were going into extra innings on this project.
And there he was just standing there with the bat on his shoulder! (He failed through lack of effort.)

I cranked these out pretty much as fast as I could type them so I'm sure there have to be at least three times as many more out there. But how many football (American soccer) terms are commonly used??

My point was, CJ, that there are more languages than English spoken in the EU. Each language has its own idioms deriving from sports (and a wealth of other fields obviously) so that's why I said I thought Europeans would hardly be tongue-tied if they couldn't use American expressions from baseball.

Certainly. Unless they were speaking English which, all too often for a variety of reasons, is often the case.

And I'm not saying this is a good thing. I love English, American or otherwise, but unflawed it's not. In Korean, each written "letter" ("pictograph," actually, I think) will be pronounced exactly the same every time it is used. Spanish has near 100% reliability in this respect as well. Both very enviable. The fact that "dough," "bough," "tough," "hiccough" etc. don't rhyme in English is one of the many things that keeps our language from perfection.

P.S. Just looked it up. "Pictographs" are the written symbols as used in Chinese, Japanese, etc. Korean uses a series of what I have to assume, for lack of a better word, are called letters. I took a course in Korean some 20 years ago and recall learning the alphabet in one day, it was so easy. I could read any Korean text aloud as good as a native speaker (accent notwithstanding) while not being able to comprehend a single syllable of what I was speaking.

Looking throgh CJ's list of phrases from baseball, it strikes me that no English person would normally use any of them, with the possible exception of "She balked at my proposal", and according to Dictionary,com the baseball sense is only one of a number of meanings of "balk". A few of them might be used, but as self-conscious Americanisms.

Cricket gives us a large number of metaphors as well. However, I suspect they are also unlikely to travel the Atlantic well. For example:

He kept a straight bat.
He was bowled all ends up.
The question stumped him.
Keeping an eye on the ball.
It's my innings now.
He hit him for six.
Caught in the deep.
Out first ball.
Scoring a duck.

[This message was edited by arnie on Wed Feb 19th, 2003 at 1:29.]

In fact, I suspect the phonetic languages are the norm and non-phonetic languages are the exception.

My linguistic knowedge is limited but, of the languages with which I have a passing familiarity, only French and English are resolutely non-phonetic.

Certainly Spanish and German have the occasional exception but, by and large, are phonetic.

This is certainly a charateristic of English - whether it is a flaw is a question I wouldn't want to argue.

Richard English

Certainly Spanish and German have the occasional exception but, by and large, are
phonetic.
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Does anyone know what percentage of Spanish is Arabic? While I don't speak any Spanish, just looking at the now ubiquitous Spanish and French labelling on merchandise here in the USA, it's obvious that much of Spanish is not Latin. I find that ironic, since the indigenous people of the South American continent are often called "Latinos."

[a href="http://spanish.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.orbilat.com%2FModern_Romance%2FIbero-Romance%2FSpanish%2FVocabulary%2FArabic_words.html"[/a]

During the time when the "moros" lived in Spain, they built mosques with "La ilaha illa Allah"* inscribed over the doorway. Many of those mosques are now Catholic churches and cathedrals, and the ornate Arabic script looks like part of the decoration.

*"Allah is the only god."

If my link doesn't work, try a Google search for ==> "Arabic words" Spanish <==

~~~ jerry

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Secondly,Canada is now eligible and has, in fact, won a World Series.

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You kinda threw me a curve there, C.J.! I immediately balked. You're really out in left-field on this one. Now, it's my turn at bat.

Canada has won the World Series twice. 1992 and 1993. Toronto Blue Jays, both times. A noted baseball authority (my 18-year-old son) assures me that the Montreal Expos would have won in 1994 but for the strike! (No, no, no! They didn't strike-out! There was a labour dispute and the Series was cancelled.)

However, I can think of only one Canadian (Rob Butler) who played on the championship Toronto team. He was paid in American dollars and played with American team mates and coaches. So, was it a Canadian victory? Certainly!

If this is true then it seems likely that there are more Arabic words in English!

Maybe someone would like to take a shufti at Google.

Richard English

Jerry was trying to post this link to a site that lists 1250 loan words from Arabic to Spanish.
I don't think he was claiming that it's definitive. It's not clear from the site whether it's intended to be definitive, but I'd doubt it.

Vescere bracis meis.

Read all about my travels around the world here.

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Originally posted by Duncan Howell:

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Secondly,Canada is now eligible and has, in fact, won a World Series.

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You kinda threw me a curve there, C.J.! I immediately balked. You're really out in left-field on this one. Now, it's my turn at bat.

Canada has won the World Series _twice._ 1992

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The fact that they have won two times does not contradict the fact that they have won a time. I was just pointing out the fact that the roster of World Series Champions was no longer limited to Yanks.

Now if only the British could keep their eye on the ball (also a baseball term) and hit him out deep in the first duck (or whatever) and put themselves together a real sports team (i.e. baseball) maybe the legitimacy of the term "WORLD Series" could be further expanded.

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keep their eye on the ball (also a baseball term)

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I doubt very much that that expression comes specifically from baseball. The importance of watching the ball carefully is stressed in pretty well all ball games.

Granted, although ice hockey is another matter, of course.

I knew a woman who once "kept her eye on the puck" a bit too closely and ended up requiring several stitches through her eyebrow. And she had been in the stands at the time!

Pardon this belated comment on baseball metaphors. I've been seeing political articles referring to "Bush league" conduct.

I think we do use a few baseball metaphors in the UK. We have a band called Leftfield, and I know it to mean radical. We also know roughly what getting to first, second, third, etc means. Are there actually specific definitions that everybody in the US knows? Is there a True Love Waits version, where getting to third base just means holding hands a lot, and the occasional peck on the cheak?

You know roughly what these mean?! Danger! Danger, Will Robinson!! A little knowledge is a dangerous thing! Allow me to elaborate:

"First base" = holding hands, kissing, etc. In R.E.'s time, I think this was called "sparking."

"Second base" = man's hands on woman's breasts. ("Second base bareback," a mixed metaphor, indicates under the bra. Hot stuff!)

"Third base" = fumbling in the danger zone. Even more dangerous in a room with a door that won't lock.

(By definition, while these are generally used in terms of the male's goals of conquest over the female, both men and women may reach first or third base with each other. No one, however, ever talks about a woman making it to second base with a guy. What would be the point?)

"Scoring" = the successful result of the male's gifts of flowers, dinner etc. and, despite his assurances that he loves her for her mind, the reason for his complete willingness to jump through any and all hoops that her evil twisted mind can concoct.

"Sliding into home headfirst" = ...well, maybe you've had enough education for one day.


Always happy to help out our inquisitive brothers across the sea.

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Will Robinson!!

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Huh?

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Maybe someone would like to take a shufti at Google.

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Echoing arnie here... Huh?

Here's a pair of baseball phrases. Quick quiz (Morgan will know): what's the source?

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Fish don't fry in the kitchen,
Beans don't burn on the grill.
Took a whole lotta tryin'
Just to get up that hill.
Now we're up in the big leagues,
Gettin' our turn at bat!
As long as we live,
It's you and me, baby!
There ain't nothin' wrong with that!

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P.S. Nicely said, CJ. I wonder if that's the source of the slang meaning of "to score" with a lady.

I was wondering when somebody would ask...

The thread was about Arabic words in English and shufti is one such.

It means, "look" and the word came over with the returning British troops who had served in the Middle East.

It's not all that common now, but was very popular when I was young.

Richard English

Hey!

Who's Will Robinson and what does he have to do with this thread?

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Originally posted by arnie:
Hey!

Who's Will Robinson and what does he have to do with this thread?

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Who's Will Robinson ?
Who's Will Robinson ?

Did you never see Lost In Space ?

Will Robinson was the little boy, "Danger, Danger Will Robinson" was the constant cry of his robotic companion.

As for what he has to do with this thread - well only CJ's psychiatrist can answer that one. The mysterious connections that the Limerick King's brain makes will forever be a closed book to the rest of us.

Vescere bracis meis.

Read all about my travels around the world here.

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Did you never see Lost In Space ?

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Nope. Presumably it was a TV show?

US 1965 TV series. A cult hit both in the US and over here in spite - or maybe because of - of its low budget, poor acting, risible dialogue and ludicrous plots. It ran for three seasons of increasingly silly episodes and was played mainly for cheap laughs.

Recently remade into a film with an enormous budget, state of the art special effects and Gary Oldman hamming it up unmercifully as the villainous Doctor Smith. The film was moderately entertaining with its frequen nods to the TV series.

Vescere bracis meis.

Read all about my travels around the world here.

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Here's a pair of baseball phrases. Quick quiz (Morgan will know): what's the source?
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Fish don't fry in the kitchen,
Beans don't burn on the grill.
Took a whole lotta tryin'
Just to get up that hill.
Now we're up in the big leagues,
Gettin' our turn at bat!
As long as we live,
It's you and me, baby!
There ain't nothin' wrong with that!
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Well, I think that is the second verse of the theme song from the TV show, The Jefferson's, but why on earth would you think I would know that?