There has been some recent discussion on the OEDILF board to do with the pronunciation of certain words, since this will affect their scansion in a Limerick.

Speedysnail said of the word "foiled" "...That's odd. What's a one-syllable foiled sound like? "Oil" itself has two syllables; barely perceptible, perhaps, but they're there.

I don't mean that two syllables = "foy - led", like some kind of 16th century pronunciation, I mean two syllables = "foy - uld".

To which statement I replied:

"...Quote "... "Oil" itself has two syllables..."

I would not consider that it does. The vowel form "oi" is a dipthong, I agree, but (in the UK at least) we do not condsider a dipthong to be multi-syllabic.

"Foiled" in UK English is pronounced "foil'd" - just one syllable...."

Now, speeysnail hails from Edinburgh which may have a bearing on the subject but what do the rest of you think? "Foil'd" or "foi'uld"

Diphthong, Richard; it's diphthong. To my ear and accent, oil is a sesquisyllabic word, one and a half syllables. The /oy/ is in fact a diphthong, but the final L is kinda syllabic. I await aput's input.

There's a funny scene in The Commitments where one fellow says of the song, Ride, Sally: "It's roid, Sally, roid, not riot Sally riot."

There's a good discussion of this question at:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=112732

(I'm sorry, but I don't know how to embed a link.)

FWIW, I'm from New England and always pronounced my name with two (to me) syllables: Doy-ul. In 1966 I was in a South Carolina Army bootcamp and for the first time heard my name pronounced "Dawl." What a shock! Nonetheless, when I write double dactyls these days, I assign a single syllable to words like "oil" and "fail."

Quote "...Diphthong, Richard; it's diphthong..."

Whoops! That'll learn me to check proper next time.

A fellow named Christopher Doyle
Attempted to find him a goil.
I don't want a moll.
Just a cute little doll.
A hotsy but cute little poil.

In some dialects, Texan, for example, "oil" is definitely a monosyllabic word that sounds exactly like "all." It comes from oil wells. In that same dialect, "well" is a sesquisyllabic word.

So to speakers of other dialects, "Oil comes from oil wells" in Texan sounds like "All comes from all Wales." (Or perhaps even "all whales.")

Always helpful.

~~~ jerry

Thanks, Jo, that's cute.

A 1984 New York Magazine competition asked for a limerick ending with the name of a well-known product. This won a first prize:

At a cheerleading contest one day
In Flatbush, the Lords led the way.
From the baron of "rah"
Through the duke of "huzzah"
To the prize-winning Oil of Olay.

-- Chris Doyle, Burke, Va.

We have had a similar discussion over the years, both in general forums and especially in the limerick and DD forums. I remember CJ, especially, being surprised with "fire" having 1 syllable, and Bob and I debating world. I did ask Bob to say "world" when I was in England, and it did seem slightly different from how midwesterners say it.

It makes it difficult to write DDs and limericks, though, I can understand that.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Doyle:
There's a good discussion of this question at:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=112732

---

Interesting site! I even understood much of it, though I didn't agree with everything. For example, I disagree slightly with the statement: " A syllable is a unit of sound composed of -1- a central peak of sonority (usually a vowel) and -2- the consonants that cluster around this central peak." I would say "unit of sounds" rather than "unit of sound", but maybe I'm just being too picky. I consider words such as "boy", "oil", and "fire" to be one-syllable words, though they certainly have more than one sound. Interestingly, I consider "hire" to be one syllable and "higher" to be two syllables, though they are pronounced nearly the same. The "er" sound in "hirer" is given slightly more emphasis than it is in "hire", at least to my ear. We had a discussion about this on this board a while back. It began with the question of whether "y" was a vowel or a consonant in "boy". We discussed it here (Oct 28) and here (Mar 19). By the way, CJ offered this definition (Nov 12): "Dipthong, noun. Extremely skimpy underwear worn by Third Grouphood women. See also: butt floss."

Tinman

This message has been edited. Last edited by: tinman,

Interesting discovery. I hadn't noticed I do this, but I do tend to make the /l/ syllabic in isolation: [OIl=]. It's only a single syllable when connected, [OIl @v] 'oil of', and it's definitely not the disyllable of ["rOI@l] 'royal', but there is a greater length and sonority in the isolated form.

I don't know of a British accent that reduces the diphthong [OI] to a monophthong such as [O:]; so it doesn't become homophonous with 'all'.

The 'fire' vowel is more complicated here. It was described as a triphthong in old RP, [faI@], and there was also the triphthong in 'power', [pAU@]. Modern RP and other Southern accents generally make 'fire' a clear two syllables now, ["faI.@] FI-a, so there's no difference between 'hire' and 'higher'. In a 'refined' form of old RP 'fire' was reduced to a diphthong [fa@], or even a long vowel [fa:] fah. I don't think many people say this any more.

I still pronounce the L as an [l] but for most Southerners it's became a vowel at the end of a syllable, so in 'oil' I think we'd have a new triphthong [OI8] oiw. Or possibly two syllables ["OI.8] oi-w.