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Nincompoop

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March 29, 2005, 00:39
Doad
Nincompoop
I'm on a roll here now with the letter 'N'!

Like 'niminy-piminy', the word 'nincompoop' is another one I find quite funny (what a sad life I lead). From what I can gather it dates from 1676 but can anyone tell me how we arrived at this word?
March 29, 2005, 02:58
arnie
Modern lexicographers seem to agree on "origin unknown".

The Word Detective has an article here.


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
March 29, 2005, 04:23
Doad
I found that article very interesting. It certainly sounds like a nonsense word but it seems to me that there must have been some reason for its first introduction and in that respect I find Dr Samuel Johnsons theory of its Latin root to be quite persuasive. It seems to me to be quite possible that earlier versions such as 'ninkumpoop' were merely phonetic spellings of the word by an ill-educated population. I appreciate I'm making a bit of a leap here but if the origin is unknown, what else can you do but speculate?
September 06, 2008, 12:26
tinman
Nincompoop is the UK's favorite sounding word, according to this article. The article says the word probably came from the Latin phrase non compos mentis, meaning "not of sound mind." This article says "it possibly sprang from the name 'Nicholas' or 'Nicodemus', a reference to the Pharisee who naively questioned Christ."

Which is it? Listen to what Marina Orlova of HotForWords has to say about it.

Here's the list of the UK's 20 favorite words (from the first link).

The nation's top 20 words:
1. Nincompoop
2. Love
3. Mum
4. Discombobulated
5. Excellent
6. Happy
7. Squishy
8. Fabulous
9. Cool
10. Onomatopoeia
11. Weekend
12. Incandescent
13. Wicked
14. Lovely
15. Lush
16. Peace
17. Cosy
18. Bed
19. Freedom
20. Kiss
September 06, 2008, 14:53
Richard English
This probably says more about the survey than it does about words. The Daily Mail doesn't tell us what the survey methodology was, but any survey that suggests that "discombobulated" and "onomatopoeia" are in the top ten most popular English words - even if that popularity refers only to the word's sound, as is implied in the article.

I would suggest that a fair number of this board's members would not have known the precise meaning of "discombobulated" and "onomatopoeia" off the top of their heads, and to suggest that a random sample would know all the words cited, well enough to decide on their favourites, beggars belief.


Richard English
September 06, 2008, 15:00
BobHale
They should have included Kalleh in the poll. I'll bet she could have got "epicaricacy" in the top 20. Smile


"No man but a blockhead ever wrote except for money." Samuel Johnson.
September 06, 2008, 15:02
BobHale
Ah. I see, I hadn't checked the link. It was the Mail.
That explains everything. Doubtless next week they'll be running articles on the evils of lexicography.


"No man but a blockhead ever wrote except for money." Samuel Johnson.
September 06, 2008, 16:46
Valentine
quote:
to suggest that a random sample would know all the words cited

I'm guessing, but I don't think the question was in the form of "which of these 20 words is your favourite-sounding", but rather, "What's yer fave word, sound-wise, mate".

That being said, nincompoop, possibly, but onomatopoeia and discombobulate, not likely at all.
September 06, 2008, 19:06
Kalleh
Oh, I disagree, Valentine. I can completely see onomatopoeia and discombobulate; I love the way they sound, too. But love? And cool? And bed? To be honest, besides nincompoop, onomatopoeia and discombobulate, these are the only others I'd even consider: squishy, incandescent, wicked and maybe lush and kiss.

I didn't get it at all.
September 06, 2008, 21:11
<Asa Lovejoy>
quote:


That being said, nincompoop, possibly, but onomatopoeia and discombobulate, not likely at all.

When will wee see a yellow book with the title, Discombobulated Onomatopoeia for Nincompoops?
September 07, 2008, 15:23
wordmatic
quote:

The nation's top 20 words:
1. Nincompoop
2. Love
3. Mum
4. Discombobulated
5. Excellent
6. Happy
7. Squishy
8. Fabulous
9. Cool
10. Onomatopoeia
11. Weekend
12. Incandescent
13. Wicked
14. Lovely
15. Lush
16. Peace
17. Cosy
18. Bed
19. Freedom
20. Kiss


I'm surprised "brilliant" isn't on that list!

Wordmatic
September 07, 2008, 23:47
tinman
Interesting, but not surprising, that all of the reaction to my post has been to the list of words, rather than to the purported origins of the word, nincompoop.
September 08, 2008, 04:21
arnie
The first reply made by me:
quote:
Originally posted by arnie:
Modern lexicographers seem to agree on "origin unknown".

The Word Detective has an article here.



Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
September 09, 2008, 18:00
tinman
Yes, that was a reply to Doad's original post, not to mine.
September 09, 2008, 20:39
Kalleh
quote:
Interesting, but not surprising, that all of the reaction to my post has been to the list of words, rather than to the purported origins of the word, nincompoop.
Well, what's your reaction to the origin, Tinman? Thoughts? You just posted links, but didn't provide your own conclusions.

Many of us here are relative amateurs at analyzing etymology and origins of words. In fact, I recently commented here about the problems with using sites for verification and asked how to use primary sources for that.

I had always thought the origin was from the Latin non compos mentis, as in the Mail Online site or as discussed in Word Detective. The online OED says that the origin is "unknown," though it says it "...may show a form derived from a name; compare French nicodeme simple or naive person (See Nicodemite)." Their etymology, in this OED version, does not mention non compos mentis, though Quinion says earlier versions did.

Of course, Quinion has another theory. Ciardi's Browser's Dictionary called the OED's assumption that the word was a fanciful formation a "clerk's guess" (don't tell John Simpson!), and he said it came from the Dutch phrase nicht om poep, meaning "the female relative of a fool." However, Quinion dismisses this, saying "Such a stretched derivation from a foreign language is typical of folk etymology that turns up a lot." He goes on to say this:
quote:
Though there was once an English verb poop, to fool or cheat, and it did come from Dutch poep, the original Dutch word meant a shit or a fart — the English slang poop for shit comes from this. The association with a fool came through a slang use of the word by the Dutch in the seventeenth century for a migrant worker from northern Germany. Modern Dutch speakers use nicht specifically for a niece, not just any female relative, but it is also slang for an effeminate homosexual. So nicht om poep might be construed with quite a different meaning.
In the end, Quinion sees the Nicodemus origin as "intriguing."

My conclusion, based on all of this, would probably be that nincompoop derives from "Nicodemus", but I could be swayed otherwise (with evidence, of course!).

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,
September 10, 2008, 02:41
arnie
quote:
Yes, that was a reply to Doad's original post, not to mine.

Your post took us no further. Why should we comment? To repeat, again, Modern lexicographers seem to agree on "origin unknown".


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
September 12, 2008, 20:21
tinman
I'm sorry, arnie, I misunderstood your September 8 post. When you said "The first reply made by me," I thought you were were refuting my post by saying that you had replied to my post and hadn't mentioned the list.

I don't know what you mean by "Your post took us no further."

One of the links in my post (Marina Orlova of HotForWords) did say that nincompoop probably came from nicodème + poop (poep). That hadn't been mentioned previously.
September 12, 2008, 21:14
Kalleh
So, Tinman, I posted my conclusions based on your links and some others. What are your thoughts? It's certainly an interesting question and most likely not one that's easily answered.
September 13, 2008, 07:31
<Asa Lovejoy>
If I remember correctly, Shakespeare used "ninny." Is it related, you think?
September 13, 2008, 12:54
tinman
It could be. Here's what the OED Online says about nincompoop.
quote:
nincompoop, n.
slang and regional
[Origin uncertain; the second element may perhaps be POOP v.2 (compare earlier NODDYPOOP n.). The first element in {alpha} forms may show a form derived from a name; compare French nicodème simple or naive person (see NICODEMITE n.). With the first element in {beta} forms compare NINNY n.1
Various other etymologies have been suggested. Johnson's suggestion of NON COMPOS n. does not agree with the earliest forms.]

A simpleton, a foolish person.

{alpha}
1673 T. SHADWELL Epsom-Wells II. i. 28 Yes, you Nicompoop, you are a pretty Fellow to please a Woman indeed.
1685 J. CROWNE Sir Courtly Nice IV. 39 Ay, for me Nickumpoop.
1694 L. ECHARD tr. Plautus Comedies 109 Thou..hast led me by the Nose, as if I had been the meerest Nicompoop in the World.
1735 J. MILLER Man of Taste V. 79 Yes, and if you had but taken as much trouble to make all fast, you would not have been made such a Nicompoop of as you are.
1739 H. BAKER & J. MILLER Learned Ladies II. ix. 65 Can you, without shame..invest a Nicompoop with all your Wealth for six Words of Latin which he bellows out to 'em? 1760 L. STERNE Life Tristram Shandy V. vii. 48 In doing it, or after he had done, had he looked like a fool{em}like a ninny{em}like a nicompoop.

{beta}
1678 W. WINSTANLEY Poor Robin's True Char. Scold 6 Ninkompoop, or pitiful lowsy Tom Farthing.
1697 T. D'URFEY Cinthia & Endimion III. i. 15 Daphne uses him like a meer Nincompoop, she makes him carry her Slippers, or mend her Stockings.
1706 Phillips's New World of Words (ed. 6), Nincumpoop or Nickumpoop, a meer Blockhead, Sot or Dolt.
1713 J. ADDISON in Guardian 16 July 1/1 An old Ninnyhammer, a Dotard, a Nincompoop[/i].
1779 H. COWLEY Who's the Dupe? II. 18 Oh, that ever I should have been such a Nincompoop!
1807 E. S. BARRETT Rising Sun I. 93 Fashion, though a goddess, is a fool, and all her worshippers..are nincompoops.
1851 D. JERROLD St. Giles xii. 117 To make him feel a coward, a nobody, a nincompoop.
1890 J. FOTHERGILL March in Ranks xxviii, I know how to behave without making too great a nincompoop of myself.
1922 ‘R. CROMPTON’ Just{em}William i. 28 Is my digestion to be ruined simply because this young nincompoop chooses to pay his social calls at seven o'clock at night?
1945 Amer. Hist. Rev. 57 865 He relied on one cryptic passage in one letter to brand the Secretary of State as a blundering nincompoop.
2001 Jrnl. (Newcastle) (Electronic ed.) 13 July, Mr Cuffe seems to lazily adopt the ignorant prejudices of a foolish nincompoop.

So it seems like nincompoop may have derived from nicodème + poop in its earlier uses and ninny poop in its later uses.

Starting with the OED's etymology, I looked up noddypoop (1598), which led me to nod (1534), noddypoll (a1529), niddipol (1582), noddypeak (1598), hoddypeak (1500), nodcock (1577), nodgecock (1566), niddicock (1586), nannicock (1600) noodle (1720), noddle (1705), hoddy-noddy (1600), and so on. The nod part refers to the head. The OED calls -cock in these words a "hyporcoristic suffix," which is an endearing suffix. There seems to be no shortage of words meaning fool or idiot. Even nidiot (1533) and nidget (a 1579) are in the OED!

I also looked up ninny (1593), origin unknown, but it may have derived from innocent (1548). That led me to ninnyhammer (1592) and hammer-headed (1552).

But, in the end, no one knows the origin of nincompoop for sure. Arnie is right, the origin is uncertain.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: tinman,
September 13, 2008, 22:10
Kalleh
Wow...it looks like you had fun with the OED, Tinman! Isn't it amazing when you look up one word, how you keep finding more and more. I think, as I said above, that nincompoop derives from Nicodemus. However, there sure isn't a certain answer on it.