"Fungible" is basically a legal term, referring to commodities that may be used to secure loans. Eg, one ton of Canadian wheat could be used to substitute for one ton of Kansas wheat, when payoff time arrived. However, I see the following quote from Time Magazine to be an interesting misuse of the word "fungible":

"Afghanistan loyalties are 'fungible'".....referring to the desertions from the Talliban.

As a lover of words (I really would like a term for wordlover) pointed out to me, loyalties are abstractions and are not transferrable. They may indeed be fragile, and soldiers may desert. However, there would be no such thing as swapping the loyalties of a thousand Chechens for a thousand Pakistanis.

Do you agree with us?

If the esential values of Chechans and Pakistanis were similar, I think you could, although one would be using the term somewhat metaphorically, and I doubt the legal profession would like that.

Asa, I guess my point is that "loyalties" are abstract really cannot be traded for each other. I believe the term "fungibles" means units that can be traded for one another.

Soooo--wordlovers, are you not responding because you don't agree with me, or you do??? (Safi, I already know you don't! )

>>I believe the term "fungibles" means units that can be traded for one another.

That can't be precisely right. Every time you purchase something -- let us say a loaf of bread -- you are trading a certain number of bills and coins for that loaf. Yet one would not say that "bread" and "coins" are fungible: in particular, you can eat the former but not the latter.

And yet as Kallah notes, there is a concept of "interchangeability" here, though it's hard to pin down precisely what's meant.

The AHD (dictionary.com) defines "fungible":

adj.
1. Law. Returnable or negotiable in kind or by substitution, as a quantity of grain for an equal amount of the same kind of grain.

2. Interchangeable.

n.
Something that is exchangeable or substitutable. Often used in the plural.

It was the "Word of the Day" for January 25, 2001 (http://www.dictionary.com/wordoftheday/archive/2001/01/25.html). One of the quotes was, "...this sort of fiction is so common that the characters will be completely fungible", whatever that means.

The OED cites "fungible" only as a law term.

It seems that "fungible" has crept from legal jargon into mainstream English, where it is applied both literally and figuratively to things both concrete and abstract.

Here are some quotes I found:
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“I turned to the Internet, which makes comparison shopping for fungible items easy.”

New York Times, Aug 9, 2001, in A Bed Fit for a Queen (And Her Hairy Dog), by Michelle Slatalla.
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“One problem is the depersonalization, caused partly by a philosophy that says statistics tell the whole story and individual officers are fungible.”

In a letter to the New York Times, Oct 15, 2000, replying to an October 9 editorial, ''How to Recruit Police Officers'', which blamed the New York City Police Department for a shortage of candidates.
=================================================

“‘High Life’ remains long on exposition and short on revelation. In fact, given the plethora of plays these days that sift society's dregs, the details of ‘High Life’ are positively fungible.”

New York Times, Feb 2, 1999, The Cream Still Rises, Even From Barrel Bottom, by Broadway play critic Peter Marks.
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"Even his supporters acknowledge that in Florio's hands, truth is a fungible commodity."

Conde Chief Says He's Not Headed to AOL
New York Times, May 20, 2002. David Carr
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“Some have suggested that the money be used for service programs, not for overhead; but money is fungible.”

New York Times, Apr 27, 2001, editorial by James Q. Wilson, Why Not Try Vouchers?
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"If truth is fungible in America these days, then let's have beauty."

New York Times, Oct 3, 1998, editorial by Frank Rich, referring to Audra McDonald singing “My Man’s Gone Now” in “Porgy and Bess” at Carnegie Hall, celebrating Gershwin’s 100th birthday.
=================================================

Re William Safire's March 29 column on gambling: I am a retired certified public accountant who audited a New York State school district the first year in which money collected from the sale of lottery tickets went to education. My audit showed that in fact the money from the lottery was fungible: the money the school gained from the lottery was canceled out by other cutbacks in state aid.

New York Times, Apr 3, 1999, letter to the editor by Myron Heckler.
=================================================

It sounds like "fungible" has become a fad word and has taken on a range of meanings.

Tinman

See The Word Detective (http://www.word-detective.com/110999.html#fungible).

Tinman

Wow, thanks, Tinman, for all your hard work.

Many of the examples, especially the two referring to truth, I just don't agree with. I think fungible relates to units that are exchangeable. You may be right that it has taken on a range of meanings that are not technically correct. I am sure that is the case with many words.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kalleh:
I really would like a term for wordlover

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"Bibliophile", from French "bibli-" + "-phile", means "booklover", according to Merriam-Webster (www.m-w.com). M-W and the OED date it to 1824. The OED recognizes it as either "bibliophile" or "bibliophil".

"Linguaphile" (from Latin, "lingua-", tongue + French, "-phile") would be a lover of language(s). I couldn't find that word in the dictionary.
I did find "lingual", meaning "of, relating to, or resembling the tongue" or " produced by the tongue" in M-W (1650) and "lingua", meaning "a language or 'lingo'" (1675) in the Oed.

Tinman

[This message was edited by tinman on Sat Aug 31st, 2002 at 0:21.]

Kalleh comments, "I really would like a term for wordlover." Tinman has given us "book-lover" (bibliophile) and "language-lover" (linguaphile).

A coinage I've seen occasionally is verbivore, which seems to have sprung independently up in more than one fertile mind. I grinned upon discovering that it's been recognized by at least one dictionary that's well-enough recognized to be considered a reference for other word-related sites. Still, it remains quite rare, according to google (and indeed, a goodly chunk of the googel hits come from a single source, the logorrheaic Mr. Lederer).

quote:

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Originally posted by wordnerd:
(and indeed, a goodly chunk of the googel hits come from a single source, the logorrheaic Mr. Lederer).

---

As you know the extremely obscure 'logorrhoea' I'm suprised you didn't suggest 'logophile' which I've seen fairly often.

Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam

Logophile is admittedly a new one on me, Bob. And it's the perfect answer to kalleh's question.

Well done, sir! (PS to Bob: check your private messages in MyPop.)

Wow! Thanks so much, guys, for the discussion. I love it when threads evolve like this one has!

Hey, Bob? I am an illiterate American. Could you please tell me what "Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam" means, and what language it is? I would guess Latin, but I would probably be wrong.

I found "logophile" in the OED but, alas, not in the AHD or M-W.

I stumbled across "logorrhea" a few weeks ago, and I immediately liked the word. It was the "Word of the Day" for March 8, 2000, where it was defined as "excessive talkativeness or wordiness" (http://www.dictionary.com/wordoftheday/archive/2000/03/08.html). That's not a desireable trait. In fact, I would define it as "verbal diarrhea". So "logorrheic" is not a flattering adjective.

"Pedantic" may be a better adjective, but I'm not particularly fond of it, either. A pedant, according to the AHD, is

1. One who pays undue attention to book learning and formal rules.
2. One who exhibits one's learning or scholarship ostentatiously.
3. Obsolete. A schoolmaster.

The words "undue" and "ostentatatiously" cast negative connotations to the word. The third definition is more positive, but is obsolete.

Likewise "pedantic" is defined as "characterized by a narrow, often ostentatious concern for book learning and formal rules: a pedantic attention to details."

The OED has similar definitions: a "pedant" is "a person who overrates book-learning or technical knowledge, or displays it unduly or unseasonably" and "pedantic" is "...exaggeratedly, unseasonably, or absurdly learned." Sounds like a pompous bore to me.

"logorrhea" has a second meaning: "pathologically excessive (and often incoherent) talking [syn: logomania]" (WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University, at www.dictionary.com).
Tinman

quote:

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Originally posted by Morgan:
Hey, Bob? I am an illiterate American. Could you please tell me what "Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam" means, and what language it is? I would guess Latin, but I would probably be wrong.

---

It's Latin for "Everybody's Got Something to Hide Except For Me And My Monkey"

I don't speak Latin either but a friend gave me a copy of Henry Beard's 'Latin For Even More Occasions' more of which can be foundhere .

As for what the translation means...

...it's a song title from the Beatles' White Album.

Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam

Bob brought "logophile" to our attention, and it is the spot-on perfect word meaning word-lover. In looking it up, I stumble across a word whose meaning is a related concept:

logolept: a word maniac

[This definition comes from Mrs. Byrne's Dictionary of Unusual, Obscure, and Preposterous Words, which unfortunately is not available on line. You'll find a slightly different phrasing of the definition at Luciferous Logolepsy, a site that uses that word as in its own name.]

quote:

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...it's a song title from the Beatles' White Album

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And there I was looking up Horace and Cicero for the source...

Latin for The White Album... Album Album.

Logophile does seem an obvious choice, but the word 'logos' refers to language in terms of discourse. We, on the other hand, like to examine words individually, analyze their denotations and connotations. Why not coin our own since we have a need for it? How about 'lexiphile'? It uses the word 'lexis' which is a direct reference to the word 'word' instead of language as a whole. I don't know if this is a word, but in my book it should be!

Love it, muse, as you'll see elsewhere.

Love it Muse! So happy to see you are back. Hope your vacation was wonderful!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tinman:
I found "logophile" in the OED but, alas, not in the AHD or M-W.

I finally found logophile ( first "o" as in politics) in an American dictionary! Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, Deluxe Edition (published by Thunder Bay Press in 2001, copyright by Random House Value Publishing, Inc. in 1996) defines it simply as a "lover of words". I think we all qualify.

Logo- is " a combining form appearing in loanwords from Greek, where it meant 'word', 'speech'."

Logomachy, lo-gom-a-chy, is,
1. a dispute about words,
2. an argument or debate marked by the reckless or incorrect use of words; meaningless battle of words, or
3. a game played with cards, each bearing one letter, with which words are formed. (anagrams?)

And a practitioner of logomachy is a logomach or logomachist.

So there, you logomachists! (In the first or third sense, not in the second, I hope.)

Tinman [URL=http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jef.dezafit/smil_reading.gif]

Boy, I'm sure glad for the edit feature. I'm able to correct some of my mistakes , and I always seem to make a few , sometimes a lot .

Tinman

Does the word logomancy exist?
If not it should. It would of course mean performing magic with words.

Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam

Read all about my travels around the world here.

BobHale,
The following "logo" words came from my favorite online dictionary, the Grandiloquent Dictionary
As you can see, logomancy is there. Unfortunately, I am probably a logastellus, though you wonderful fellow posters are helping me! And, wordcrafter, thank you for being our logogogue!

loganamnosis - The obsession with recalling a certain word
logastellus - A person whose love of words is greater than their knowledge of words
logocracy - Rulership by words
logodaedaly - Verbal trickery or legerdemain
logogogue - A person who leads others in the use of words or by the use of words
logographer - A person who writes speeches or chronicles historical events
logomachist - A person who engages in a war of words
logomachize - To engage in a war of words
logomachy - A war of words or a battle about words
logomancy - Divination by words or by speech
logomaniac - A person obsessed with words
logomaniac - A person who is crazy about words
logophile - A person who loves words
logophobia - The fear of words
logorrhea - Excessive talking (or verbal diarrhea)

Thank you Kalleh.
I shall try to use one a day in my conversation until I've worked my way through the list.


Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam

Read all about my travels around the world here.

Kalleh
Member
posted Sat Sep 7th, 2002 10:49
logastellus - A person whose love of words is greater than their knowledge of words

Act II, Scene I:

New Orleans, a hot and steamy night. Dogs bark in the background, Stanley Kowalski appears, standing beneath the apartment windows, under the fire stairs. he is exceedingly drunk.....

Logokowalski: "LOGOSTELLLLLLLAAAAAAAAA! "€

"what?"

logokowalski: "an ael nath raek, uthas spaethood, doch eyl dienvayyyyyyyyyyy, an ael nath raek, uthas spaethood, doch eyl dienvayyyyyyyyyyy, an ael nath raek, uthas spaethood, doch eyl dienvayyyyyyyyyyy!" (sic)

free mini-jumbo bonus prize for wh omever can tell us what stanley logokowalski meant. (mini-hint: it's logomancy) ∞

This logastellus is too logophobic to attempt this one!

How logophiles operate:

Fantastic, Shufitz! I think that comic should be our logo!

The following is a quotation from a book by Thomas Homer-Dixon, "The Ingenuity Gap". The author has very impressive credentials, and he is describing the workers in London's new business center:

"Some of them, at least, belonged to an endlessly fungible international super-elite of investment bankers corporate lawyers, and equity traders whose members are equally comfortable working anywhere on the planet, so long as they have the right computers, software, and communications equipment."

Once again, I disagree with this use of the word. What do you think? Maybe the use of "fungible" is changing because of its misuse in the media.

Reviving a very old thread...

We talked about the appropriate use of fungible in this thread, and I found a use today that I question. What do you think? This sentence was in an editorial of the Chicago Tribune:

"In some courtrooms, deadlines are fungible--subject to 'scheduling conflicts,' requests for continuances, protracted arguments over federal sentencing guidelines, vacation weeks, elaborate claims of mitigating factors, rope-a-dope delaying tactics that range from crude to shrewd, and other excuses."

This was one of my first posts here...about the word "fungible." I see at the time I didn't even know the word "logophile" or "linguaphile."

Anyway, I read this in the NY Times today:

quote:

First, the right’s disinformation machine is, explicitly and implicitly, making the argument that facts (science, math, evidence) are fungible and have been co-opted by liberal eggheads. They have declared war on facts in response to what they claim is a liberal war on faith.

Isn't it a misuse of the word fungible? At least I always thought fungible should be exchangeable units, and not facts, such as science, math and evidence. Thoughts?

I've noticed the frequent occurrence of misuse in this thread. Such an unreconstructed prescriptivist word! MW gives three definitions; the first is the narrow sense that has been mentioned before, and then the extended meanings of interchangeable and flexible. It's also worth mentioning that fungible carries overtones of fuzzy, adding the sense that the boundaries are blurred.

I'll give you, arnie, that the word has evolved to support the NY Times use. However, the original meaning wouldn't have supported it, right? I see it much like your word, moot.

quote:

I see it much like your word, moot.

The new meaning of moot is the opposite of the original. That's not true of fungible, where the newer meanings are at least related to the original.

So that's your reason? Aren't there other words where new meanings are the opposite? I thought we'd discussed them here, but I searched tonight and couldn't find that thread.

Here's a post by me from 2006 (when I was rather more prescriptive in outlook) explaining why I don't like the 'not worth discussing' sense of moot. Further down the thread there are links to earlier discussions of the word, and autoantonyms/contranyms/Janus words/etc in general.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: arnie,

I do agree with z in that thread...nearly no one, at least in the U.S. uses moot in the original way. However, they do use to mean "debatable" in law.