For Valentine's day we talked about epigamic behavior (attracting the opposite sex). Enjoy this from today's Wall Street Journal (link may only be valid today):

With the possible exception of eating, mating is the behavior that separates evolution's winners from its losers. No surprise, then, that natural selection has shaped mating habits among the birds and the bees that make the human version look downright boring.

Take gift giving. Tiny creatures called dance flies don't have an ornate tail or much else to signal their sex appeal as, say, peacocks do. So the male shows off his fitness through his largess, bringing a female a big dead fly, for example, so that she can nibble on it while he mates with her. The hidden message: I am big and strong enough to schlep this carcass all over the meadow, and if you mate with me our kids will be big and strong, too.

But among some dance flies, cheating is rampant. Many a male brings his intended a worthless gift, such as a bit of silk he makes with special glands. Over the years, [scientists] suspect, a few males decided to heck with lugging along a dead fly to their assignation, and instead bestowed just an insect fragment, wrapped in easily carried silk to make it look bigger. Getting good results, some males began skipping the snack and presenting just a worthless wisp of silk. That way, they got to invest less in sex (less foraging for a nuptial gift) and still reap all the rewards. As long as females are dazzled by appearances …

Says Ms. LeBas, of the University of Western Australia, Nedlands: "The strategy of cheating with an inedible token works. Female mate preferences appear to be susceptible to males who cheat."

That is hilarious! However, it seems to me that there are a lot of assumptions by these scientists!

Here's something I found, but didn't use, while seeking a quote to illustrate the word 'epigamic'. It doesn't seem that the author is a mere 'pop' theorist, for his book recently appeared in a 25th-anniversary reprinting.

Pure epigamic display can be envisioned as a contest between salesmanship and sales resistance. The sex that courts, ordinarily the male, offers chiefly evidence that it is fully normal and physiologically fit. But this warranty consists of only a brief performance so that strong selective pressures exist for less fit individuals to present a false image. [The female] will find it strongly advantageous to distinguish the really fit from the pretended fit. Consequently there will be a strong tendency for the courted sex to develop coyness ... its responses will be hesitant and cautious in a way that evokes still more displays and makes correct discrimination easier.
- E.O. Wilson, Sociobiology: The New Synthesis (Harvard U. Press 1975) [as quoted in a secondary source]

Quote "...Says Ms. LeBas, of the University of Western Australia, Nedlands: "The strategy of cheating with an inedible token works. Female mate preferences appear to be susceptible to males who cheat."..."

She never said a truer word. Nice guys (read honest) are always the losers.

Women will deny it, of course, saying that they value honesty, respect, faithfulness and all those other noble values - but they leap into bed with the real swines who lie to them and tell them what they want to hear.

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Originally posted by Richard English:
She never said a truer word. Nice guys (read honest) are always the losers.

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Same goes for 'nice' women too - men seem to prefer bitches who treat them dreadfully.

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Women will deny it, of course, saying that they value honesty, respect, faithfulness and all those other noble values - but they leap into bed with the real swines who lie to them and tell them what they want to hear.

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But that's the point, RE. They lie. Very few women will deliberately seek out a tosser; the problem is that the real cads are extremely good actors. I've been disappointed - not to mention hurt - several times by someone I thought was genuine (i.e. they appeared to have the qualities you mention and I was attracted to that), only to find out it was all a show. I just don't bother trusting suitors now.

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Originally posted by Cat: "But that's the point, RE. They [men] lie.

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And women don't "misrepresent" themselves? Isn't a push-up bra basically a misrepresentation? Heck, the entire cosmetics and fashion industries could be viewed as devoted to misrepresenting a woman.

Or putting this as a word-issue, how do you draw the line between misrepresentation and salesmanship?

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Originally posted by wordnerd:
a push-up bra ... how do you draw the line between misrepresentation and salesmanship?

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Giving whole new meaning to a word for salesmanship: puffery.

Reminds me of some song lyrics which, because they're long, I am posting separately here.

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Originally posted by wordnerd:
And women don't "misrepresent" themselves? Isn't a push-up bra basically a misrepresentation?

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There's a heck of a difference between wearing a push-up bra (or holding in your beer-belly, for the lads) and pretending to be a decent, honest, faithful, compassionate person when you're a vile, cheating, abusive ****. I was talking about the latter.

Everybody misrepresents themselves a bit physically. It'd be great if people could accept each other for who they are, imperfections and all, but that's not going to happen. Much as the film 'Shallow Hal' is a comedy (and an OK one at that), wouldn't life be simpler if we could only see inner beauty - and inner ugliness - represented on the outside? We'd know straightaway who to avoid, and those of us who look for internal qualities would get the added bonus of going out with real hotties!

I've been disappointed - not to mention hurt - several times by someone I thought was genuine (i.e. they appeared to have the qualities you mention and I was attracted to that), only to find out it was all a show. I just don't bother trusting suitors now.

Cat, don't hold it against all men, though. There are so many genuine, loving, caring men out there. Don't give up...just toss out the jerks, but give the others a chance. Someday it will happen for you, too. I just know it!

We'd know straightaway who to avoid, and those of us who look for internal qualities would get the added bonus of going out with real hotties!
LOL - Cat you crack me up! For myself, once I'm diggin the guy's inner qualities, I usually consider him to be a hottie, regardless of what societal standards may be. For me, the key is to find a guy who can do the same. ;-)

Quote: For me, the key is to find a guy who can do the same.

Easier said than done, CW

Thanks Kalleh, but fear not, I haven't actually given up. I just find it difficult - nay, impossible - to trust potential suitors now. I'm working on myself but the way I see it, if someone's genuinely as good a person as they make themselves out to be, then they'll be prepared to make the long journey of gaining my trust. Those who won't do that are the kind I should be avoiding like the plague anyway.

Men . . . who can understand them? Certainly not me! Although, whatever would we do without the little darlings?

Remember, deeply and bologically men and women want different things from a relationship. In spite of our veneer of civilisation we are still very close to our wild animal ancestors

At the most basic females (aka women) want a partner who will support them while they rear children - which is their unique ability. Males (aka men)want to ensure that their genes are as widely distributed as possible.

The two desires are not compatible and all the ritual and argument about "men who can be trusted" and "women who are frigid" and all these other kinds of cliches stem from this basic difference.

Once both sexes accept that these differences exist then the whole paraphenalia of sexual pairing is easier to understand.

Not that it alters the basic truth: men who lie and pretend that it is a lasting relationship they desire, get the sex they want. Men who tell the truth and say they just want sex, don't get it.

It has been said,

Men marry to have sex;
Women have sex to get married.

I do not comment; I merely note.

Umm . . .
Sometimes men and women have sex to have sex, and marry to please their parents.

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Originally posted by Cat:
Quote: For me, the key is to find a guy who can do the same.

Easier said than done, CW

Thanks Kalleh, but fear not, I haven't actually given up.

Consider, Cat, that post-divorce, it took me nineteen years, many dozens of dates, and three serious, almost permanent partnerships, before I met Sunflower. It isn't easy for either gender!

As for men only wanting to disseminate their semen (Is that redundant?) widely, that sems less urgent as we get older, and one woman becomes completely sufficient. So maybe that's why so many young women pursue older men. That, and that they've got money.

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Originally posted by Asa Lovejoy: so many young women pursue older men.

Really? I certainly hadn't noticed it.

That's one of those many things that you won't notice until you grow older, Shu.

And if you DO notice it, Kalleh will have your hide!

Jeepers - I've been missing this fascinating discussion! OK, Asa - what about all the older men who pursue younger women? It works both ways!

Hang in there, Cat. I had a very bad relationship prior to meeting my wonderful Asa. I just kept at it, and there he was, waiting for me! And we were pretty crazy about each others' "inner qualities" before we actually met.

Re: misrepresenting oneself: I think women tend to use the makeup and push-up bras because those are the things that attract many (shallow) men. I've always been a "what you see is what you get" type, because I figure you can't hide behind a facade indefinitely. Well - except maybe for hair color - but Asa knows I use that stuff. You do, don't you, Asa?

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OK, Asa - what about all the older men who pursue younger women? It works both ways!

And it is much more likely to work that way, Sunflower!

I was asking Shu just today why women have evolved wearing make-up, jewelry, many different styles of clothes versus men. I just wonder how that happened. I realize some women don't wear make-up & jewelry and some men wear make-up & jewelry, but I mean in general. Any ideas?

I wonder if it has something to do with losing young men in war. It would make the population skewed, allowing men to be choosier than women, and making women more competitive.

When I was a young women in my early 20s, I did on occasion date older (30ish) men because they seemed to have more of a clue about women than their younger counterparts. Now that I am older (a bit) I date, marry, whatever... people more in my own age range or a bit younger. But having dated a 27 year old in the not too distant past, I really can't see how Demi Moore does it. It was just too much of an age difference. He really had much more in common with my 15 year old son, than he did with me.
Okay... that's my two cents...

There's another biological factor at play here about age.

An older man is still able to protect and care for a woman and thus provide the environment necessary to bring up children. A powerful and wealthy older man is clearly even more suited than simple biological factors would suggest. Added to the fact that older men will have had the opportunity to learn and practise techniques that will apeal to women and you have a potent mixture which readily explains why older men are often successful in establishing relationships with younger women.

The reverse does not apply, though. Older women are less fertile than younger women and are less able to help a man's disemination. The attraction of power and wealth, while clearly still powerful, are less able to overcome the disadvantage of that biological lack.

In a way it's maybe only fair; we chaps have a hard time in our teens and twenties whereas girls can take their pick as to who they wish to be entertained by. As we get older, we chaps start to find that ladies of our age or less begin to find us more attractive.

Incidentally, just in case someone suggests it's all to do with good looks, remember beauty is in the eye of the beholder; there is no universal standard for good looks and there is no reason why a person aged 30 should be more attractive than one aged 15 or one aged 45 - apart from our biologically conditioned responses.

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remember beauty is in the eye of the beholder; there is no universal standard for good looks and there is no reason why a person aged 30 should be more attractive than one aged 15 or one aged 45 - apart from our biologically conditioned responses.

Really? You could have fooled me! Our biologicially conditioned responses must really be strong then!

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Really? You could have fooled me! Our biologicially conditioned responses must really be strong then!

They certainly are. And you can see the results when it goes wrong and people develop fetish-like attractions to others of ages which one would normally consider quite inappropriate.

Fortunately for the continuation of the species people who develop attractions for others of the wrong age (or even the wrong sex) are in a minority.

I will notice young men for the "eye candy" that they are . . . but looks don't have as much to do with attraction for me as other factors (see my post about witty). But for me, and some other women I know, younger men are . . . too shallow, too arrogant, and just plain annoying more often. Older men are more interesting to talk to, are able to carry on decent conversations, respect (or at least fake respect) women more.

Yes, I agree, CW. The younger men in our office stand around and talk about sports all the time. I am talking about well-educated men, some with PhDs. While I love a good game of basketball, there is more to life than sports!

Of course, biological needs, especially for women, change as time goes by. Your change in preference is to do with your change in need. Neither of you would have wanted to talk words with a sixty-year-old man when you were in your teens.

The change is less for men since the urge to dissesminate never goes away and is always capable of satisfaction.

Kalleh, I agree. Just the other day I told Asa that the good thing about working with mostly women was a lot less talk about sports!

And Richard, you're probably right, but some "older" men do have the presence of mind to be attracted to women near their own age, with whom they have more in common than biology.

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but some "older" men do have the presence of mind to be attracted to women near their own age, with whom they have more in common than biology.

Absolutely. It's just that our range of possible paramours increases as we age. One of the few compensations, I fear.

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In a way it's maybe only fair; we chaps have a hard time in our teens and twenties whereas girls can take their pick as to who they wish to be entertained by. As we get older, we chaps start to find that ladies of our age or less begin to find us more attractive.

I know you said 'maybe' and 'in a way', which show it's not your real opinion, but I couldn't disagree more with that statement. For a start, throughout my teens and twenties more of my male contemporaries have never been without a date than my female ones, but even putting that to one side (as it's only a relatively small subsection of society), mens' obsession with beauty only through youth can never be fair.

*** Important note: I'm generalising here, and certainly don't want to offend any of the older gentlemen on here who are happy with women their own age and who perhaps also dislike the bad press their shallow peers give them. So when I say 'men', I mean many men - just not you guys! ***

Anyway, even if it's true that younger women generally have it easier than younger men, younger men will usually find someone eventually. An single older women rarely has that opportunity. Even a women who's married may find her husband leaves her for a younger model, and then she's as stuck as her single sisters, as very few men seem to find older women attractive. The best thing a woman can do is find someone while she's as young and attractive as possible, and hope that the love that blossoms is sufficient to keep her man with her when the youth and beauty fade - the younger she is at the start, the more time there'll be for this love to deepen, and hence the more chance she'll have of keeping him later.

This is a factor of society that worries me greatly, especailly as I get older. I know some of you will disagree with me, and you're as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine (much as it's an opinion I'd rather I didn't have), but I've seen it happen to older female friends and read about it countless times, so it's not my imagination. Do women really age more badly than men, or have we all simply been conditioned to believe that? Female beauty - unlike male beauty - is associated with youth, so we already have that going against us.

Stories like those of Asa and Sunflower give me hope .

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Cat,

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For a start, throughout my teens and twenties more of my male contemporaries have never been without a date that my female ones,

Having negotiated the quicksand of double negatives I think that you're saying that your lady friends found it more difficult to get dates than did your male friends. If that was the case then I can say only that things have changed a fair bit since my teens.

Of course, in those days it was always the men who had to do the asking (and the paying) and being turned down was an ever-present hazard. Surely now, in this emancipated world, any girl who's not asked could do her own asking (and paying, come to that).

Of course, if they just sit at home waiting for the 'phone to ring then they will sometimes fail to get a date - as would a man doing the same thing.

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Having negotiated the quicksand of double negatives I think that you're saying that your lady friends found it more difficult to get dates than did your male friends.

Yeah...sorry You think correctly.

I've edited the post to change 'that' into 'than', but I quite like the double negatives, so they stay!

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Stories like those of Asa and Sunflower give me hope .

Sorry to burst your bubble, Cat, but Sunflower's five years my junior! Just a mere child!!! And I know two women in their seventies who "get lucky" a LOT!!! I must admit, though, that one of them still gets modelling gigs, so that might have a wee bit to do with it.

FIVE YEARS??? OMG, you cradle-snatcher, Asa!

Kalleh? Shu? Should we tell them about me and Rex? Heh...

(whatme, rob the cradle... never!)

Do tell, Jo!

My hubby is 8 yrs older than me. I like it that way. I'm his second wife . . . so I tell everyone I'm the trophy wife.

I'm 14 years older than my husband. And yes, it does make a difference. And no, I probably wouldn't do it again. And further no, I didn't and don't think it makes me look foolish. But there are attendant difficulties.

About the only time it doesn't make a difference is when you are middle aged. As you get older the difference starts to grow again, as it did when you were younger.

The only thing that bothers me is that my husband (who is 8 yrs older) looks younger than I look at this point. No fair!

I insist that Rex keep his beard, which is white. Without it, people refer to me as his mother.

BARF