Theory has many branches and varieties, but its main tenet might be that all thought is linguistic: Neither concepts, nor narrative, nor rhetoric can exist independently of their linguistic expression, and therefore all such things are conditioned by the power relations that produce and condition words.
That is interesting, and so true. I have seen great ideas being shot down because the the proponents were unable to articulate them persuasively.
imo language can influence what we think, but language does not determine thoughts. Some linguists like Stephen Pinker argue that our thought does exist independent of our language. He calls the language we think in "mentalese".
Oh, I agree, goofy. However, the articulation of ideas is absolutely affected by language. Recently a group of us has been trying to get a major, ambitious initiative approved. We've identified the evidence. The challenge has been convincing our readers. I am certain some innovations have not been implemented because those proposing them haven't used persuasive enough language.
I don't think, though, that language can determine thoughts.
How would one express his thought without language or some sort of communication?
A thought cannot be expressed without communication - but it can certainly be expressed without speech. A few minutes with any smart dog proves that.
And I disagree that concepts cannot exist without linguistic expression - that it cannot express its ideas by words, words doesn't mean that a dog has no conception. Indeed, dogs tend to be very perceptive about concepts such as walks and eating - with never a word being uttered.
And one could make the same comments about human babies.
Richard English
Posts: 8038 | Location: Partridge Green, West Sussex, UK
Well, I don't know how one can implement an idea that he/she can't express verbally. I do understand, though, that there are mathematical ideas that can be expressed in different ways. I also am having a hard time seeing how I could have an idea that I can't express verbally. Just thinking about it means I am expressing the idea into words, doesn't it? I want to have an open mind here, but I am having a hard time understanding how I could think about something without using words (unless, of course, I were in Bob's condition. ).
Well, I don't know how one can implement an idea that he/she can't express verbally.
See my note about dogs and babies. They have plenty of ideas but can't express them verbally.
In fact, expression comes, if it comes at all, after the idea. One of the reasons why humankind is such a successful species is that it can, by the use of language, convey (often complex) ideas to other humans by the use of language. No other species can do this.
The body language used by the higher orders of animals, whilst being amazing in what it can achieve, is staggeringly limited when compared with human speech. Just try telling a dog that it's his birthday tomorrow and seeing whether he understands this simple concept.
Richard English
Posts: 8038 | Location: Partridge Green, West Sussex, UK
Now, get somebody to imagine a tree by not telling them what you want them to imagine. You can point at some object in the world you two share, but the abstract concept of tree is more difficult. When I point at the Monterey pine in my back yard, I am not doing the same thing as telling a person to imagine a tree. The problem as I see it is that it's nearly impossible to tell what a person (or dog) is thinking without language, i.e., some mapping of concepts or thoughts to some arbitrary set of signs. Now a tree is at least something that is concrete. There's a great set of things in language which are not. How do I get you to close your eyes and imagine time or the? Like many of the things we discuss here, it's a complex subject, but one which has been discussed before by experts, such as cognitive scientists, linguists, psychologists, philosophers.
See my note about dogs and babies. They have plenty of ideas but can't express them verbally.
I was being way too concrete; I see that now. When I was thinking of implementing ideas, I was thinking of tackling a big initiative. I suppose you could say that picking up a rattle or urinating at a fire hydrant are examples of "implementing an idea."
I also was thinking that art or music can probably be imagined, but not verbalized, at least to some degree.
Like many of the things we discuss here, it's a complex subject, but one which has been discussed before by experts, such as cognitive scientists, linguists, psychologists, philosophers.
I've been thinking about this comment for the last week or so.
Yes, many of us here do discuss things that we are not expert, per se, in. In my field, for example, the Web is full of all sorts of assertions, where some are true, but most are not. People read the Web and make those same assertions. I know; I've seen it here. The same, I know, happens in each of your fields. So we all strive to keep things accurate...but none of us here is perfect. I remember once reading some linguist Blog about how stupid some of our posts, on the subject of words and language, were. I was insulted at first. Then, in thinking about it, I realized that I could say the same of them in some of their posts which happened to address healthcare.
I am not sure why z's factual sentence created such a stir in me, but that's life I guess.
Originally posted by Richard English: In fact, expression comes, if it comes at all, after the idea.
I believe Richard has pinpointed the distinction well here. Those who are musically inclined, and artistically inclined-- and I suspect mathematically inclined as well-- are aware that concepts arrive in non-verbal form, then are shaped and further refined as we choose the specifics of the chosen medium to express the concept. I would venture to suggest that even literary ideas are first put together mentally using a symbolism which is visual and less detailed than language. Especially when one arrives at a metaphor with which to clarify a concept-- there is a geometrical sense of concepts clicking into place in a shape, before one reaches for the words with which to hone the thought.
Posts: 2605 | Location: As they say at 101.5FM: Not New York... Not Philadelphia... PROUD TO BE NEW JERSEY!
This has been a topic of discussion among mathematicians for some time. On one hand, you have people like Quine who believe all mathematical inspirations are essentially linguistic, and on the other you have guys like Poincare who think that ideas are first conceived intuitively and pre-linguistically. My suspicion, based on their work, is that they are both correct when speaking of themselves.
There's a nice article in the WSJ today about how different languages affect the brain differently. I thought of this thread with this comment:
quote:
For generations, scholars have debated whether language constrains the ways we think. Now, neuroscientists studying reading disorders have begun to wonder whether the actual character of the text itself may shape the brain.
and this one
quote:
No one knows which came first: habits of thought or the writing system that gave them tangible form. A writing system could be drawn from the archaeology of the mind, perpetuating aspects of mental life conceived at the dawn of civilization.
Originally posted by Kalleh: There's a nice article in the WSJ today about how different languages affect the brain differently. I thought of this thread with this comment:
quote:
For generations, scholars have debated whether language constrains the ways we think. Now, neuroscientists studying reading disorders have begun to wonder whether the actual character of the text itself may shape the brain.
As far as I can see the study actually suggests that different writing systems activate different parts of the brain, not that different writing systems change the brain in different ways.
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