US readers may or may not know that this week has been the annual party conference for the Labour Party and so we've had more than the usual amount of political rhetoric floating about the airwaves.
One thing that has caught my ear several times is the frequent use of phrases like

"It's impossible to underestimate John Prescott's importance to the party."

I've caught it several times with both "underestimate" and "undervalue". I suspect that while I agree completely with what it says, I'm agreeing with the exact opposite of what was meant.

Bob, I think this is an instance of sarcasm, where the expression is used so often that the person no longer realizes they are being sarcastic.

For example, when I say "I could care less", I use it as an idiomatic expression, not as sarcasm, if that distinction makes sense.

Sean, have you heard that phrase used in the U.S.? While the "could care less" is used here, I haven't heard "can't underestimate."

I disagree. I think it's a genuine mistake. Because the words underestimate and undervalue are much more common than overestimate and overvalue (in everyday speech) people are failing to realise that "can't underestimate" means the exact opposite of their intention. I don't think it's ever had widespread currency as a sarcastic expression. I really think it's because people (politicians especially) live in such a soundbite culture that they don't ever pause to consider what the soundbites actually mean.

Indeed. The correct phrase is "Never underestimate" or similar.

For example, "Never underestimate the power that promotion has to change consumers' minds".

Or in the instance of Prescott, "Don't underestimate John Prescott's contribution to the happiness of his secretary" *

*US readers who haven't been following UK politics can look at the examples set by, among other Presidents, Kennedy and Clinton, to realise the kind of happiness that is referred to here ;-)

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Originally posted by Kalleh:
While the "could care less" is used here, ...

What I find interesting is that "I could care less" and "I couldn't care less" mean exactly the same thing!

Are there any other examples of this? I can't think of any right off the bat.

Phroggye

Fascinating question, Phroggye.

Off the top of my head, the only ones I can think of are regardless/irregardless and flammable/inflammable. But I'd bet dollars to donuts there are more.

I think we've discussed it in a couple of places before. I'll hunt down the threads later. I usually mention - she has/doesn't have the morals of an alley cat.

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I think it's a genuine mistake.

I think the same about "could care less," though if I recall, my colleagues here disagreed with me.

Welcome back, Froesch! I was just thinking about you the other day. As I've have posted here before, "could care less" and "couldn't care less" are opposite in actual meaning. I just think that people keep carrying on the mistake that first person who used the curious phrase made.

Here's one earlier discussion: When do opposites mean the same?.

Another is in British v American English, and another is in the Is it just me or ... thread. There are lots of references just to "could/couldn't care less" throughout the forum; it seems to be a perennial subject.

Yes, arnie, I agree about it being a "perennial subject." That seems to be the case for many discussions of words and phrases on word boards...except of course for our "perennial discussion" of epicaricacy, which I presume doesn't occur on other word boards.

our "perennial discussion" of epicaricacy

It's more discussed than used, I dare say.

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It's more discussed than used, I dare say.

I dare say you're right...and I dare say I'm the culprit. I promise not to mention the word when we meet John Simpson in a week.

My problem with the word "epicaricacy" is its pronounciation. It seems a real toungue-twister to me. Schadenfreude is much easier (and it's saying something to suggest that any German word could be simpler than an English one!)

Once you get the hang of it, epicaricacy is not that difficult a word to pronounce. I've never been able to figure out how to pronounce schadenfreude to my satisfaction.

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Once you get the hang of it, epicaricacy is not that difficult a word to pronounce. I've never been able to figure out how to pronounce schadenfreude to my satisfaction.

Satisfatcory or no, schadenfreude is pronounced SHAHdenFROYder.

That is different than any of the ones I attempted. That 'r' at the end, that's not really pronounced, right?

The final e in schadenfreude is a schwa. The British seem to pronounce a word-final -er as a schwa, at least in prestige dialects. I've always wanted people to post pronunciations in IPA or SAMPA or something less ad hoc, but it seems too difficult to too many of the members, and I've given up trying to noodge people about it. The nice thing is that the forum software used for this board seems to be able to handle most Unicode symbols. I'd transcribe my West-Coast American pronunciation as /'ʃadən,frɔjdə/ in broad IPA transcription.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: zmježd,

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The final e in schadenfreude is a schwa. The British seem to pronounce a word-final -er as a schwa, at least in prestige dialects.

That's what I meant to imply. As ZM suggests, we don't usually pronounce the "r" in an "er" ending, but it's needed to show that the "e" is sounded (which it usually isn't when it ends a word)

quote:

Originally posted by BobHale:
I disagree. I think it's a genuine mistake.

Yes. Impossible and underestimate.
Isn't the error simply the use of near double negative, which can be a useful device when people think about what they are saying.

quote:

Originally posted by wordnerd:
Off the top of my head, the only ones I can think of are regardless/irregardless and flammable/inflammable. But I'd bet dollars to donuts there are more.

I'd say it's impossible to underestimate the size of the dollars-to-donuts ratio!