My sister and I were out to dinner with our nieces, and as often is the case in Wisconsin, they had a Friday Fish Fry at the restaurant. Both kids immediately said, "I hate fish!"

That made us wonder...why is people don't say, "I don't like meat," but they often say, "I don't like fish."? There surely is a huge difference between walleye, for example, and salmon, just as there is a big difference between chicken and bacon. We further wondered if that's why fewer people like fish than like meat. Perhaps if people specified what kinds of fish they didn't like, they'd be more open to trying another kind. Any thoughts?

Silly me, I thought fish WAS meat! Of course, I'm delibertely ignoring the business once popular with Roman Catholics of abstaining from terrestrial critters on Fridays. Something to do with Yeshua's feeding a multitude with a basket of matzo and a few ripe walleye.

Asa, who eats fish but not beef - go figure...

meat

I've always called people who ate fish and chicken but not meat Californian vegetarians.

My no. 2 Son won't eat fish; not even lobster, which I assure him is entirely different from typical fish

Perhaps it's because they associate the charactristic aroma with decay or with that of certain areas of the human body

"What have we here? A man or a fish? Dead or alive? He smells like a fish; a very ancient and fish-like smell . . ." —William Shakespeare, "The Tempest"

won't eat

I am reminded of the character Archie Bunker of All in the Family (Til Death Do Us Part yankified) saying he would not eat beef tongue because he "did not want to eat something that came out of a cow's mouth"; he settles for an egg salad (or egg mayonnaise) sandwich.

[Removed an of which annoyed me.]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: zmježd, June 18, 2006 12:03

I see your point, Asa. Yet, there are certain types of vegetarians even who will eat fish, but not chicken, pork or beer.

Then they aren't vegetarians, are they? I don't give a rat's rosy red reticulated rump what "they" say, "vegetarian" means one who exclusively eats vegetables. And don't get me going on that absurd term, "vegan," they're bloomin' vegetarians!

Asa the pedant

"vegan"

I thought a vegan was a person who ate vegetarians. Oops, my bad. But seriously, the word's been around for longer than me, and was coined by Britons (founders of the Vegan Society):

quote:

The word vegan, usually pronounced /ˈviːgən/ [vee-gun], was originally derived from vegetarian in 1944 when Elsie Shrigley and Donald Watson, frustrated that the term "vegetarianism" had come to include the eating of dairy products, founded the UK Vegan Society. "Vegan", which they saw as "the beginning and end of vegetarian", started and ended with the first three and last two letters of vegetarian.

At least, they have a sense of humor, sort of.

quote:

Yet, there are certain types of vegetarians even who will eat fish, but not chicken, pork or beer.

Beer???

pork or beer

Maybe it was a typo for beef, or perhaps 5th-level vegans don't eat yeast.

I keep remembering Zmj's comments about language evolving, Asa. I know that the flesh of fish maybe should be considered meat, but is it used that way? Here is the first definition of "meat" in Dictionary.com:

"The edible flesh of animals, especially that of mammals as opposed to that of fish or poultry."

Interestingly, it doesn't consider poultry to be meat either; I have heard meat defined that way before.

Vegans are really hard. They not only don't eat any meat, fish or poultry, but they also don't eat eggs or milk products. I've always wondered, do they eat bread or pasta or cereals or cakes or cookies, etc., that all have eggs and/or milk?

all have eggs and/or milk

They're not supposed to. They also don't drink many wines because they use egg albumen to filter, or vodka that is filtered with bone filter. No honey, either.

Beer usually has finings added towards the end of the brewing process to help clarify the brew. Finings is usually made from the swim bladders of fish, so it may be an issue for vegetarians/vegans.

Some vegetarians take the view that the beer itself can be regarded as vegetarian, since the finings is not actually consumed but falls to the bottom of the cask with the spent yeast. Others adopt the position that, although not strictly vegetarian, the use of finings in beer is an issue they are prepared to overlook for the sake of convenience.

Strict vegetarians will avoid beers that use swim-bladder finings, in favour of those that use an alternative such as seaweed extract. This can be difficult, as pumps do not usually carry this information and those selling the beer are unlikely to know either. In addition, many people are simply not aware of the issue.

EDITED: I forgot to credit Wikipedia with the information on finings and vegetarians.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: arnie, June 21, 2006 08:51

Isn't a Vegan also an inhabitant of the asteroid Vega

Isn't a Vegan also an inhabitant of the asteroid Vega

Depends on how it's pronounced: vegan /vig@n/ is the word under consideration; Vegan /vEg@n/ would be your asteroidal alien. And we all know that the adjectival form of Venus is Venerian and not Venusian.

I am someone who never liked fish. I still don't like strong smelling fish or those kinds of fish that have a really strong fishy taste. I dont' know much about fish, and certainly don't know enough about the different types to know what to order . . . other than knowing that I generally like grilled tuna, I sometimes (but not always) like grilled salmon, and I love sushi (except for eel and octopus). I have a great aversion to the smell of canned tuna, and don't even get me started on tuna casserole! Ack! But I truly LOVE very fresh, raw tuna . . . with wasabi.

quote:

I generally like grilled tuna, I sometimes (but not always) like grilled salmon, and I love sushi

But that's my point...they are fish. So you don't hate fish.

quote:

Isn't a Vegan also an inhabitant of the asteroid Vega

As well as zmj's remark: possibly. However, that is where capital letters come in: a Vegan would be from Vega; a vegan a vegetarian.

Just a minor note: Vega is a star; Vesta is an asteroid.

Don't be silly - Vesta is a virgin! Golly, Shu, don't you know nuthin'? However, she might suffer from asteroids.

I thought a vesta was a match...

Asa is thinking of Vestal virgins, the Vestales. They were priestesses who tended the sacred fire of Vesta, the Roman goddess of the hearth (cf. Greek Hesta). You can see why a brand of matches might be named after her. Swan Vestas (safety matches originally manufactured by Bruyant & May) replaced Lucifers (phosphorus matches) which had caused a disease known as phossy jaw.

People get very puzzled over what a vegetarian is. I think they imagine we are a special society with our own code of conduct. Many meat-eaters imagine that I shouldn't wear leather shoes. Others think that I have to justify not eating fish and seafood.

It's all very simple: vegetarians don't eat meat.

If fish eaters want to say they are vegetarians, why can't they? They avoid meat.

Hey, Graham, while I have you on the line , please read the thread in Community and join us for the Wordcraft convention in October in England.

Now...as for your comments. And I can only speak as an American. However, many vegetarians here are holier than thou about why they don't eat meat...because animals are killed for it. They flaunt how wonderful they are for protecting the animals; then is it a wonder that someone might say, "But you are wearing leather shoes!"

If you are having someone over for dinner who is a "vegetarian," you must ask: Do you eat Fish? Chicken? Eggs? Milk products? Jello? Beer? Wine? Vodka? Honey? You don't think it gets confusing?

On the other hand, as long as the vegetarian is clear about what his/her needs are, then I think we are all fine with them. It's just that they are all very, very different.

quote:

Do you eat Fish? Chicken? Eggs? Milk products? Jello? Beer? Wine? Vodka? Honey?

A bit off topic, but it seems to me that the use of growth hormones in cattle may have gotten into the people who eat them. Look how many ten-year-old girls have well developed breasts these days. Something's going on that just doesn't seem right.

Those who have excessive cholesterol might eschew beef without being "vegetarian."

I would have to see some trending on that, Asa. While height definitely has increased, I am not sure about body development. Has height increased because of normal evolution or growth hormones? I suspect the former.

Yes, of course, many people don't eat red meat or other foods (shrimp) because of cholesterol levels. I wasn't referring to that. The only point I was making was that being "vegetarian" isn't all that clear, and one must alert the cook as to what he/she can or cannot eat.

quote:

Originally posted by Asa Lovejoy:
Look how many ten-year-old girls have well developed breasts these days. Something's going on that just doesn't seem right.

The Sep. 9, 2000 issue of Science News reported a study linking pthalates to premature thelarche (breast development) in girls in Puerto Rico.

Tinman

That was really interesting, Tinman. I am worried about the childhood obesity problem, which the article says may be partially related to early puberty.

Since one can't see whether a ten-year-old girl has entered menarche when she's walking down the street, I just assumed that thelarche was a clue to concomitant menarche.

I think first comes thelarche, then menarche, then anarche ...

I could be wrong.

The boys may be catching up with the girls. Gynecomastia in pre-pubescent boys has recently been linked to lavendar and tea tree oils.

Puts a new meaning into "breast man."

Tinman

There is a magazine for non-heterosexuals called The Lavender Network. Suppose they know something I don't?

Thanks for keeping us abreast of this topic, Tinman!

quote:
Isn't a Vegan also an inhabitant of the asteroid Vega

Ask Spock. He had a thing going on with V-GER.

quote:
"Perhaps it's because they associate the charactristic aroma with decay or with that of certain areas of the human body"

Bringin it back to Topic...

Subtitle: The Scent of A Woman

Many cultures will agree that "intimate femininity" during lovemaking smells fishy.
Now i forget who, but there was a well known Jewish comedian who would state that
each time he passed the street-market fishstall, he'd tip his hat and say "Hello ladies!"

Perhaps all an average boy needs is some life experience, later on, to reconnect the fragrance of fish with more pleasant activities.

Quote:
"Then they aren't vegetarians, are they? I don't give a rat's rosy red reticulated rump what "they" say, "vegetarian" means one who exclusively eats vegetables. And don't get me going on that absurd term, "vegan," they're bloomin' vegetarians!"

Q: What's the hardest part about eating your vegetables?

A: Swallowing the wheelchair.

quote:

Originally posted by Epiphile:
Quote:
"Then they aren't vegetarians, are they? I don't give a rat's rosy red reticulated rump what "they" say, "vegetarian" means one who exclusively eats vegetables.

Lots of words have grey areas and shades of meaning.

When we say a person is bald, we could be referring to complete hairloss, or a great big bald patch or a bit of male-pattern baldness. Likewise we can use vegetarian to mean somebody who eats solely vegetables, somebody who eats no meat or fish, or somebody who eats no meat bit eats fish.

Some words have fewer grey areas, like juvenile, sexist and puerile.