Bierma's language article today is about David Crystal's new book, entitled, "The Fight for English: How Language Pundits Ate, Shot, and Left." It is a history of pendantry or pickiness about language usage.

Some of his quotes are interesting:

"In 1589, George Puttenham urged poets not to 'follow the speech of a craftsman ... or other of the inferior sort ... for such persons do abuse good speeches by strange accents or ill-shapen sounds, and false orthography [spelling].'"

Or

"In 1754, Philip Stanhope made the dire declaration, 'It must be owned that our language is at present in a state of anarchy.'"

It sounds interesting.

I bought this book a while back, but before I could finish reading it, Viki picked it up and started in on it. Now that she's done, I'll have to start up again. Crystal is an excellent author.

I'm going to have to get that too. As you know, I rate Crystal very highly indeed.

Well, I must then, too. From Bierma's post, I had thought it was a new book, but I guess not.

Here are some other parodies on Truss's book:
~ Dr Whom: "E.T. Shoots and Leaves: A Zero Tolerance Approach to Parodication"

~ Eats, Shites & Leaves: Crap English and How to Use It.

Language Log says that the serious one, though, is Crystal's.

Eats, Shites & Leaves

I think of shites /'ʃəjts/ as a verbal form used by the Irish and the Scotish anglophones. Are there others in the UK and Eire who use it?

Zmj, is "shite" and the German word (is it "scheiss"?) from the same root? Or from the same bowels, for that matter?

You recommended Crystal's book when we were at Powells, but I haven't gone back to get it. I shall, though.

is "shite" and the German word (is it "scheiss"?)

Yes, that and English shit, too. All from PIE *skei- 'to cut, separate', cf. Latin scio 'to know' whence English science, sheave, etc.

You recommended Crystal's book when we were at Powells

Yes, and what did you think of R. Wardhaugh's book, Proper English, which you did get? I mentioned it at the chat yesterday as another good book to read ...

[Fixed typo.]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: zmježd,

In ENgland shite is really only used as a noun. I don't recall ever hearing it used as a verb.

quote:

I think of shites /'ʃəjts/ as a verbal form used by the Irish and the Scotish anglophones. Are there others in the UK and Eire who use it?

My husband's Great-Aunt Mary from Montreal, who was a Scots Canadian and a sharp tongued one at that, used "shite" instead of the e-less form, and we all knew exactly what she meant, even though none of us ever heard anyone else say it.
She used it strictly as an interjection!

Wordmatic

quote:

Originally posted by zmježd:



Yes, and what did you think of R. Wardhaugh's book, Proper English, which you did get? I mentioned it at the chat yesterday as another good book to read ...

He makes a good case for descriptive rather than prescriptive language study. The chapter on Webster's third edition and the Random House Dictionary was enlightening in that he shows that even among prescriptivists one can't find agreement as to what's "proper!"

While I'm still not swayed in my belief that we would be better off with a "standard grammar," I am led to believe that non-standard use of words - and of grammar too - create much of our most expressive language.

quote:

he shows that even among prescriptivists one can't find agreement as to what's "proper!"

I've absolutely seen that with prescriptivists, and it's fun, actually, to point out their inconsistencies. We have one going at our place now: Is it p.m., P.M., pm, or PM. My goodness, you'd think the answer to that question would save the world!

I will have to get "Proper English," too, besides Crystal's book.

PM? Pre-menstrual, post-mortem, Prime Minister, orrrr? Oh, they did a post-mortem on the pre-menstrual Prime Minister!

It is fairly useful to have a "house style" which lays down how such initialisms as "PM" are shown, for consistency. Otherwise the real prescriptivists can have fun pointing out that Joe Bloggs's article used "p.m." and Jane Doe used "PM", etc.

Personally, I feel that it matters little so long as internal consistency is maintained within publications, although if the output is in the form of a journal, newspaper, or Web site, where works from several different contributors appear together, it is wise to impose a house style.

Just for shoots and giggles, what do y'all make of this quote from one of the model airplane sites I frequent?

"From a cutting point of view we use layers to denote different power or speed settings. So you can cut the part out and engrave it's part number.

BTW bezier and splines don't work to well with some cam software. I have to remove all traces of them before i cut, otherwise the air can be turned blue and i throw me rattle !"

He's discussing the use of computer aided drafting and computer aided manufacture. The meaning is clear enough (Including the humour!) but how does "cutting" have a point of view? What's that apostrophe doing in "it's?" Is "too," as in "very," now spelt as in "towards?" Is "i" no longer capitalised in the UK? (He's from Lincolnshire)

Pure descriptivists might find all this acceptable, yet it looks pretty weird to me!

I'd say that the person (from Lincolnshire) means (a) its for it's; (b) too for to; and, from the standpoint of how to cut out parts for from a cutting point of view, or some such.

The mistake that many prescriptivists, as well as descriptivists, make is to assume that merely describing the current state of a language is tantamount to licensing solecisms. There is no reason why the homonyms two, to, and too are all spelled differently. If we can determine which is which in speech by context, we can determine which is intended by the poor speller. As for splines and bezier curves, folks who do not know these terms might ask why jargon is being used instead of good, plain English. Because for people in the know these are not buzzwords meant to distract or obfuscate, but merely vital and elementary vocabulary. You could also mention the use of BTW as a non-standard abbreviation and cam in lowercase instead of CAM (or more properly C.A.M.), etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Asa Lovejoy:
While I'm still not swayed in my belief that we would be better off with a "standard grammar,"

When you put it like that, I agree. A standard language is very useful and all English speakers can benefit from learning it. Being a descriptivist does not equal believing that "anything goes."

OTOH, we use different language in different social situations. The language I use in a formal paper is not the same language I use on my website.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: goofy,

we use different language in different social situations. The language I use in a formal paper is not the same language I use on my website.

Yes, indeed! I've seen resumes submitted for the position of technical writer or editor which have typos or solecisms on them. I've heard a funny German pop song, where some parents are trying to find their lost child in a large department store. Their speech ranges from pure dialect (Kölsch), through heavily accented regional High German, to Standard High German. The rules on the use of register and dialect are really quite complex.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zmježd:
is "shite" and the German word (is it "scheiss"?)

Yes, that a English shit, too. All from PIE *skei- 'to cut, separate', cf. Latin scio 'to know' whence English science, sheave, etc.

What a fabulous URL, zmj, mille mercis!! (RE: Indo-European word roots)

p.s. I think it could be argued that scheize is the term commonly used auf Deutschland. Check w/Lynne Truß, teehee.

I suspect we are spoilt here on Wordcraft in that the posts are made by persons who enjoy the use of words and take care over their spelling and grammar before submitting anything. The post cited by Asa is far more typical of those made to other forums on the Web. It seems to matter little whether the poster is from Lincolnshire or Louisiana.

The rapid expansion of the Web means that we are reading stuff written by people who have more difficulty in expressing themselves in English than we (the members of this forum) do. That is not intended as a snide comment, just a statement of fact. Ten years ago it is unlikely that anyone outside a few people would have read anything written by him. The inability to spell or puctuate correctly, has, however no connection with his abilities as a model aeroplane builder or as a user of CAD/CAM software. Unfortunately the less well-written of these posts tend to sidetrack many readers; they will be more concerned with the mechanics of passing on the information, rather than the true content of the message.

A prime example of this was a post by a regular seaman, in an Australian forum, about a ferry disaster in Sydney Harbour. His message was very difficult to understand and it was obvious that he was almost illiterate; I am no expert but I'd say he was severely dyslexic. A barrage of replies followed making fun of his poor spelling but hardly any covered the actual points he raised. To my inexpert eye his points looked perfectly valid.

I feel sure that he probably was fully aware of his difficulties with spelling, but decided to risk ridicule in an attempt to get his message across. I am sorry that so many chose to ignore him for the wrong reasons.

quote:

Originally posted by zmježd:
Yes, that a English shit, too. All from PIE *skei- 'to cut, separate', cf. Latin scio 'to know' whence English science, sheave, etc.

And nice , from Latin nescius "ignorant", from ne + scio.

quote:

Originally posted by goofy:


And nice , from Latin nescius "ignorant", from ne + scio.

Does this correlate with the Greek term for excrement? I don't speak a lick of Greek, but have heard Greeks saying something like "skuvala."

Arnie, I had no intention of demeaning the man from Lincolnshire; rather, I found it interesting that he uses the same nonstandard spellings and punctuations that I might use here on the Oregon, USA. Maybe there's a de facto standard for non-standard English! It looks weird to me whether it's posted from the UK or from next door. And I WISH I had his understanding of CAD!!!

Asa the Ignorant

quote:

Originally posted by Asa Lovejoy:

Does this correlate with the Greek term for excrement? I don't speak a lick of Greek, but have heard Greeks saying something like "skuvala."

Neither do I, but I found this:
σκατά ή σκατό, σκατάς etc.

However, Pokorny says the root became σχάζω "scratches, slits" in Greek. That is σχ and not σκ.
It also became σχιζειν "to split", as in schism.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: goofy,

quote:

Personally, I feel that it matters little so long as internal consistency is maintained within publications,

I completely agree with you, arnie. Also, I agree regarding the probable dyslexic poster. Do you remember wildflowerchild here on Wordcraft? She also had a rather primitive style to her writing, though we all seemed to accept her for it and we missed her when she lost her Internet connection (or something). I do recall, though, that she was criticized on another forum for her style.

As for your Lincolnshire man's apostrophe, I recently sent a limerick to OEDILF with a similar apostrophe error. I had worked and worked...hard...on that limerick because it had defined "Chicago," and I wanted it to be good. I guess I focused on the definition and the meter and the rhymes too much and completely disregarded an "it's" mistake. Fortunately I noticed it myself and fixed it before someone else noticed it. Still, it made me wonder how many posts or how many emails I've sent with those kinds of errors (e.g., their and there; it's and its; to, too, and two; etc.) While I agree with everyone that we should have some consistencies in writing, I also wish some prescriptivists (no one here) would quit being so judgmental about grammar or spelling mistakes; sometimes that's all it is...a mistake!

skuvala

Classical Greek has a word σκυβαλον (skubalon) 'dung, excrement; rubbish' (used in the New Testament, but rarish), the plural of which would be pronounced something like /skivala/ in Modern Greek.

I found it interesting that he uses the same nonstandard spellings and punctuations that I might use here on the Oregon, USA.

That many make similar spelling mistakes seems to indicate that there's something wrong with the spelling system rather than its users. English orthography is just not very user friendly. But seriously the reason people misplace apostrophes and write to for too is that they're simply guessing at one of two or three ridiculous spelling rules for what amounts to the same word. It's the same kind of reason that folks say between you and I. they know something is wrong about the saying something like me and Dean went to Boyes Hot Springs but they're not quite sure or don't have the time to be sure.

I would be surprised if somebody wrote thue for any of the three /tu/s though th as in thyme and ue as in rue. It's just that when they guess correctly, nobody notices.

[Adjusted the just.]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: zmježd,

G'day from the Antipodes,
Home of the Wombat.
A wombat is a marsupial similar to a badger.
A wombat is dull witted and quite slow and used as an insult but the complete insult is the complete saying that has been partially discussed.
A wombat eats, roots, shoots and leaves.
This is totally sexual and no mistake.
A dull witted fool performs cunnilingus, intercourse, ejaculates and exits.

.,,

Dot Slash Slash comes and goes.

Isn't his name Full Stop Virgule Virgule? Or Punctum Karma Karma?

..... llega ... se acaba ... y se va ......

Isn't Dot a girl's name? According to his profile he's male, though.

(To .,, - no offence, mate! )

A wombat eats, roots, shoots and leaves. = wombat exercise.
A wombat eats; roots, shoots and leaves. = punctuation exercise.

.,,

A wombat eats roots, shoots, and leaves. = another take on it.

Well spotted.
There are many messages possible from a short sentence.

quote:

There are many messages possible from a short sentence.

Which is the message that those of us, who believe that punctuation and capitalisation are important, have been trying to convey.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard English:

quote:

There are many messages possible from a short sentence.

Which is the message that those of us, who believe that punctuation and capitalisation are important, have been trying to convey.

Which is why I prefer eloquence and a minimum of punctuation.

.,,

quote:

Which is why I prefer eloquence and a minimum of punctuation.

How can you vary your eloquence when you write, if you eschew punctuation?

quote:

Originally posted by Richard English:

quote:

Which is why I prefer eloquence and a minimum of punctuation.

How can you vary your eloquence when you write, if you eschew punctuation?

It will be a cold day in hades when my variance of linguistic eloquence is at all roped in by puncitillious constraints.
Words carry information while punctuation attempts to clarify a lack of syntagmatic lucidity.

.,,

There is a good thread going now on the advent of shorter sentences. I suspect (as I posted there) that the grammar mavens, such as Strunk and White, have proclaimed that shorter sentences are better grammar. Therefore, shorter sentences are taught in school and, once again, the grammar mavens have won out. It's a pity.

Richard, .,, did not say he was eschewing punctuation; he said he used it to a minimum. That's a big difference. Some punctuation, such as full stops (periods to Americans), are non-negotiable. Other punctuation, though, is merely a matter of style. Most style manuals (surely the Chicago Style Manual) will acknowledge that.

quote:

Richard, .,, did not say he was eschewing punctuation; he said he used it to a minimum.

True. But I inferred from what he wrote that he liked to be eloquent - and that can be tricky unless a certain amount of punctuation is used. I suppose it depends on what you mean by "minimise".

I abhor the trend amongst those addicted to text-speak, of eschewing any form of punctuation or capitalisation. The job of creation is the writers; the job of interpretation is the readers. If the writer does the job badly, then the reader has to do more work and may well misunderstand the meaning of the writer's words. Punctuation is a tool that aids clarity - although I accept that, as is the case with any tool, it can be misused or overused.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
There is a good thread going now on the advent of shorter sentences. I suspect (as I posted there) that the grammar mavens, such as Strunk and White, have proclaimed that shorter sentences are better grammar. Therefore, shorter sentences are taught in school and, once again, the grammar mavens have won out. It's a pity.

Richard, .,, did not say he was eschewing punctuation; he said he used it to a minimum. That's a big difference. Some punctuation, such as full stops (periods to Americans), are non-negotiable. Other punctuation, though, is merely a matter of style. Most style manuals (surely the Chicago Style Manual) will acknowledge that.

Thanks Kalleh,
Some punctuation is non negotiable but much is to cover poorly constructed sentences.

.,,

quote:

Originally posted by Richard English:

quote:

Richard, .,, did not say he was eschewing punctuation; he said he used it to a minimum.

True. But I inferred from what he wrote that he liked to be eloquent - and that can be tricky unless a certain amount of punctuation is used. I suppose it depends on what you mean by "minimise".

I abhor the trend amongst those addicted to text-speak, of eschewing any form of punctuation or capitalisation. The job of creation is the writers; the job of interpretation is the readers. If the writer does the job badly, then the reader has to do more work and may well misunderstand the meaning of the writer's words. Punctuation is a tool that aids clarity - although I accept that, as is the case with any tool, it can be misused or overused.

I am not sure that punctuation consistently aids clarity and can think of many sentences that are made quite confusing by a comma or semi colon.

I am sorry that I merely inferred that I wish to write eloquently.

May I supply an example for your consideration. Where would this piece be improved by the addition of punctuation?

There is no hidden message or criticism here. It is simply a piece of eloquence I own.

Another sleazing greazy liar.
Oh how they winge and they whine and they wail as they quail with their tail firmly nailed by the flail of the grail from the gavel in the hand of the man with the strength to stand and face the ban then take the hand of the sham who banned the grand illustrious land and place that ham directly in the bin that reveals the sin behind the grin and those who go in the inquiring bin revealed in their sin no longer grin while the strength to stand comes back to the man who faced the ban and was damned and the hand that was grand in the illustrious land moves in ways now strange to those who stand in the grand illustrious land, the land that was forged by the hand of the banned.

It looks remarkably like a passage from one of James Joyce's books.

That's a gatillazo.

Jerry's Spanish phrase seems to mean "arrives, finishes, leaves" with the gender of the subject unknown, but we'll assume it's a guy. Gatillazo is an interesting word. From the RAE dictionary its literal meaning seems closest to misfire in English, but it has another meaning which is best translated into US English as not being able to get it up or in medicalese erectile dysfunction. At least that's what Bob Dole, stand-up comic and erstwhile US presidential candidate called it in the commercial which may have lost an election for his spouse. Gatillo is Spanish for trigger. And gat is a term for a gun in authors of Dashiell Hammett's vintage. Thanks, Alexa, and welcome aboard.

quote:

Originally posted by arnie:
It looks remarkably like a passage from one of James Joyce's books.

Please explain?

quote:

Originally posted by arnie:
It looks remarkably like a passage from one of James Joyce's books.

If you had in mind The Dead you're widely off the mark, so I will assume you mean Ulysses.
I can't find any similarity between what .,, wrote and Joyce.

Oh how they winge and they whine and they wail as they quail with their tail firmly nailed by the flail of the grail from the gavel in the hand of the man with the strength to stand and face the ban then take the hand of the sham who banned the grand illustrious land...


The choice of words and the style are totally different. You can interpret what .,, wrote, but what Joyce wrote is a description with nothing left to the imagination.

Do you really think this looks remarkably like this?

At various points along the eight lines tramcars with motionless trolleys stood in their tracks, bound for or from Rathmines, Rathfarnham, Blackrock, Kingstown and Dalkey, Sandymount Green, Ringsend and Sandymount Tower, Donnybrook, Palmerston Park and Upper Rathmines, all still, becalmed in short circuit.


If I had to be a critic of .,, work I would say his use of alliteration could be influenced by Poe's use of alliteration.

Ah, distinctly I remember it was in the bleak December;
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
Eagerly I wished the morrow;-- vainly I had sought to borrow
From my books surcease of sorrow-- sorrow for the lost Lenore--

My favorite example of alliteration in The Raven:

"Nothing further then he uttered
Not a feather then he fluttered
Till I scarcely more than muttered ... "

Jerry, if I remember correctly, it was "The Raven" that brought you to this site in the first place. So I rather like it, too!

Yes, Kalleh, I had "subscribed" to WordCraft AWAD(?) which asked us to identify the link among words like mien, obeisance, craven, et al.

I'm not sure what year that was -- maybe 2001, maybe 2002 -- (a search reveals month and day only -- not year) but I had returned home after a visit to my Old Home Town, where I had presented a "One-man Poe Show" for the student body, ending with a dramatic "oral interpretation" of "The Raven."

So that list of words was right up my alley, so to speak.

Nice of you to remember.

quote:

Originally posted by jerry thomas:
My favorite example of alliteration in The Raven:

"Nothing further then he uttered
Not a feather then he fluttered
Till I scarcely more than muttered ... "

Who control sad justice dying
bitter mournful social shame
See victims ever bleeding
wasted down the grim blue drain

ABC DEFendant

How many brave bodies you battered
When forcing the law you had bettered

With lies and deceipt lives you bittered
Your bread by these same crimes was buttered
Lies jargon and dogma you chattered
All dreams of your life now clattered

With meaningless words you then cluttered
A public confused and embittered
The laws of the land still enfettered
As morals lie tied down and fettered

Yours skills as a cop over flattered
The gelt your goal gone and fluttered
The silver you stole sadly frittered
You find now your life never glittered

The eagle once noble lies guttered
I wonder your knees how they jittered
Opponents now well read and lettered
With victims your life was well littered

Destroyed all the pure things that mattered
When faced with real questions you muttered
With lie after lie first you nattered
From book after book then you pattered

With honour you lightly were skittered
Then by the hard questions are smattered
When tapes finally roll you are spattered
A grim new reality splattered

You sat back and profanely spluttered
Then spoke but with answers so stuttered
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
The blue veil of silence lay tattered

Observers with tears must have tittered
To see the blue princes then tottered
Sly shylocks selfconsciously twittered
As guilt from your lips fell uttered

.,,

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It does have a beautiful rhythm .,,

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alexa Cohen,