I read this today: "...my mother would pay hand over fist to dress her models," and of course I have heard the phrase "hand over fist" before. But I wondered where it would come from and found this:

quote:

During the Iron Age (circa 1200-200 B.C.) coins were pounded using a mallet and a peg, the peg featuring a hardened "stencil" at one end. With the peg gripped in one hand (fist) above the un-cast coin, the mallet is brought down with the opposite hand to cast the face of the coin.

Making money, literally, hand over fist.

This was from Wiki answers.

So my question is, have you only seen "hand over fist" used with money? It seems to me that I've heard it used more broadly, but I can't think of another way and couldn't find much online.

Here is another explanation.

EDIT: Here's another site giving the same explanation. Apart from the literal meaning of pulling on a rope it's interesting that it only seems to be used to refer to making/losing money. I don't recall ever seeing the phrase used in another context, although not to say that it hasn't been, of course.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: arnie,

With your first explanation, Kalleh, I think of the word, strike, not the subject term. To strike a coin is to forcibly imprint the coin with the image engraved on the die. https://www.google.com/search?...sAQ&biw=1440&bih=781

Both those explanations are so different (the rope versus the coin). Arnie's is probably right, except that it wouldn't link it to money like the coin explanation does. I had hoped to find it in Quinion, but it's not there. Maybe I'll ask him.

I did send Quinion's site an email about that, and they sent back this canned response:

quote:

Many thanks for writing. Unfortunately, I get many more questions
than I can possibly answer in the time available. Please do not
be offended if it proves impossible to respond within a reasonable
period of time.

Oh well.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:

quote:

During the Iron Age (circa 1200-200 B.C.) coins were pounded using a mallet and a peg, the peg featuring a hardened "stencil" at one end. With the peg gripped in one hand (fist) above the un-cast coin, the mallet is brought down with the opposite hand to cast the face of the coin.

Making money, literally, hand over fist.

I'm very skeptical. I don't see how anyone could know that an English expression originated in the Iron Age.

I understand the skepticism. But why then does not the other origin have anything to do about money? Why couldn't you use it for other "speed and profusion" (which is how arnie's site describes it) references? That site (the Phrase Finder) does say that now it is used to "...suggest speed and profusion, especially in financial dealing..." By the especially, perhaps the phrase is sometimes used with something other than money?

I understand the skepticism.

Well, how old is the phrase in English? Does it exist in any other languages? How old is it in those languages? How far back to the Iron Age from there? Was it always used in the larger phrase: making money hand over fist? Etc.

Etymology is not an armchair sport. You need to find evidence for the origins of words and phrases. It's hard work.

No, of course it's not an armchair sport, but there is no harm in asking those who are experts in etymology. Thus, I asked Quinion. Had I thought it an armchair sport, I would have just added some lighthearted talk. Instead, I took to a well-respected expert and do plan to report back. A link here and there doesn't always do it for me.

Your original citation was from Wiki Answers. Quinion basically said nothing about it. What are the experts' names at Wiki Answers? Sorry, I do not even have an armchair to sport from. If the phrase really does originate from a time before there was an English language, then I say you need to connect the dots. What was the phrase in Latin or Greek? How did the experts trace it to the Iron Age? The first of Arnie's citations traces it back to the 18th century.

You are 100% correct. Sorry about that.

quote:

Originally posted by zmježd:
If the phrase really does originate from a time before there was an English language

From a time before the English language was written down

- pedantic goofy

From a time before the English language was written down

I suppose you could call Proto-Germanic English. My point is, the years given above predate Old English, written or unwritten. And whatever you call the language, it was a different one than Old English.

I tried to find Roman minting terms, but failed. I did find this, however: http://www.coins-auctioned.com...ory-repeating-itself

quote:

Originally posted by zmježd:
And whatever you call the language, it was a different one than Old English.

I'd say Iron Age English is the same language as modern English. Of course they're mutually unintelligible because of the time difference. But saying they're not the same language implies to me that we have a way of determining when one language turns into another. Maybe we're using the word "language" in different ways.

quote:

But saying they're not the same language implies to me that we have a way of determining when one language turns into another.

Aren't Italian and Latin different languages, then? Italian is of course a descendant of Latin, as are the other Romance languages, but are you saying they are the same?

quote:

Originally posted by arnie:
Italian is of course a descendant of Latin, as are the other Romance languages, but are you saying they are the same?

They are the same language spoken at different points in time. But I guess this isn't the usual use of "language".

They are the same language spoken at different points in time. But I guess this isn't the usual use of "language".

I understand what you're saying, goofy, but another meaning of language (in the context of is it a language or a dialect?) is that the former are mutually unintelligible.

quote:

Originally posted by zmježd:
I understand what you're saying, goofy, but another meaning of language (in the context of is it a language or a dialect?) is that the former are mutually unintelligible.

By that definition, I guess the question "what is the oldest language?" has an easy answer

By that definition, I guess the question "what is the oldest language?" has an easy answer

Not as easy as you would think. It seems to be a tie between Sumerian and Archaic Chinese.

For what it's worth, Michael Quinion got back to me on my original question here. He says the OED suggests that Phrasefinder is "spot on." He also said that a possible alternative explanation is that it is a classic folk etymology.