Elsewhere we've mention the Defenestration of Prague, an event we heard of in our school days. There's another historical event whose name gave us chuckles in those day. I refer to the famous Diet of Worms. This is not the latest weight loss program; rather, "Worms" is a town in Germany, and a "diet" is a religious assembly.

"Diet" is also, of course a weight-loss program. Are the two meanings connected, or is "diet" simply two separate words, with two separate histories, which happen to have the same pronunciation and spelling?

Second question: What do we call such a pair of words? Is there a term for such a pair?

Actually this doesn't seem to be clear. The regimen is from a Greek word diaita 'regimen, way of living', possibly related to the root zo- 'live', if that's from earlier *dio-.

The origin of Diet the assembly or parliament is not known for sure. Either it was from that same word diaita, but then the meaning transference is not obvious; or it's from dies 'day' with the meaning that it's a session that met daily. The Germanic languages use dag, Tag 'day' in this sense, as in Reichstag, but this isn't very good confirming evidence unless we know it was independent. Perhaps the word originally came from diaita, was reinterpreted in Latin by association with dies, and then this new sense was calqued into Germanic.

Not to be pedantic.

(Oh not that here, never here!)

Isn't it spelled more like Wurms? Or Vurms? Mr. Hale?

I know there's the Japanese Diet. (Sound like a joke, but that's the senate/parliament there, I believe.)

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Originally posted by aput:
... and then this new sense was calqued into Germanic.

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calqued? What's that?

Calque: using a word or words that has a non-standard sense in one language and borrowing that same sense into your own language using your own words.

The standard example is 'skyscraper', which is borrowed into French not as *le skyscraper but by meaning as gratte-ciel.

Not the same as merely making a native compound: 'television', literally 'far-sight' got calqued into German as Fernsehen, but in Icelandic they invented a non-calque word sjónvarp 'sight-(broad)cast'.

I might be extending the sense of the word a bit when I call Tag a possible calque, as it's not a compound, but an instance of 'they're calling their assembly a "day", let's do so for ours'.

One of my favorite calque s is the Spanish luna de miel for 'honeymoon'. Loanword in English is a calque of the German Lehnwort.

The two diets are indeed troublesome. The Greek verb diatao 'to lead one's life; to regulate, moderate' may come from dia- 'through' plus aitao 'to divide'. (It does not occur in Homer.)

The daily assembly diet may come from a reanalysis of diæta in Latin as coming from dies 'day'. So, German -tag could be a calque, though there is a dialectal word tagen 'to spend the day' that may have come into the mix. The original Diet was the Holy Roman Imperial one, and thus German would have been involved from an early date.

The current Russian duma comes from the word meaning 'mind; thought, meditation', and the Japanese Diet is kokkai from koku 'country, national' plus kai 'to meet; meeting'.

HolyMoley!

I wish I were a Zombie, jheem. I would so eat your enormous brain.

MMMMMMMm. Big gray squishy brain.

I confess I'd never heard the term "calque" before but I think I know a good one. Is dandelion a calque ?
If so in which direction has the word travelled?

I know that it's from the French "dent de lion" which literally means "lion's tooth". I also know that the German for the same plant is der Löweszahn which also translates literally "lion's tooth".

Anyone have any specific knowledge of where the word originated and how it migrated ?

Every silver lining has a cloud.
Read all about my travels around the world here.
Read even more of my travel writing and poems on my weblog.

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Originally posted by WinterBranch:
Not to be pedantic.

(Oh not that here, never here!)

Isn't it spelled more like Wurms? Or Vurms? Mr. Hale?

I know there's the Japanese Diet. (Sound like a joke, but that's the senate/parliament there, I believe.)

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Worms is the name of a place in Bayern. It's spelled W-O-R-M-S.

Every silver lining has a cloud.
Read all about my travels around the world here.
Read even more of my travel writing and poems on my weblog.

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I know that it's from the French "dent de lion" which literally means "lion's tooth". I also know that the German for the same plant is der Löweszahn which also translates literally "lion's tooth".

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No, dandelion is not a calque. It's a loanword from the French. If we called dandelions lionstooths, then it would be a calque.

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Big gray squishy brain.

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Actually, if you cracked open my head and started eating my brain, it would be sort of an off-white color and gooey, bloody. Fresh brain looks nothing so much like lasagna. It gets gray when aged in fromaldehyde. Enjoy ...

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Originally posted by jheem:

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I know that it's from the French "dent de lion" which literally means "lion's tooth". I also know that the German for the same plant is der Löweszahn which also translates literally "lion's tooth".

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No, dandelion is not a calque. It's a loanword from the French. If we called dandelions _lionstooths_, then it would be a calque.

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But surely it's a calque in German ?

Every silver lining has a cloud.
Read all about my travels around the world here.
Read even more of my travel writing and poems on my weblog.

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But surely it's a calque in German?

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Yes, it is. I'd misread your post, BobHale. Sorry about that. German excels at calquing foreign terms rather than borrowing them.

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Actually, if you cracked open my head and started eating my brain, it would be sort of an off-white color and gooey, bloody. Fresh brain looks nothing so much like lasagna. It gets gray when aged in fromaldehyde. Enjoy ...

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Get me some Parmesan cheese. This sounds yummy as heck!

Yes, WinterBranch, between Bob, aput and jheem, my brain gets stretched!

As to one of wordnerd's questions, isn't there a word for two separate words, with two separate histories, which happen to have the same pronunciation and spelling? It seems to me that there is.

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Originally posted by WinterBranch:
I wish I were a Zombie, jheem. I would so eat your enormous brain.

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Be careful about eating human brains. That's how kuru got started!

Tinman

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isn't there a word for two separate words, with two separate histories, which happen to have the same pronunciation and spelling?

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I believe you are thinking of homonym.

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Be careful about eating human brains. That's how kuru got started!

Tinman

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Oh heck, I'm not worried about kuru. I mean, I'm already a Mad Cow.

arnie, does "homonym" also mean that the words have a different etymology? If so, that's it!

Homonym is a catch-all term for two words that are the same: could be same sound (homophone), same spelling (homograph), or both; could be realted or not. Homonym is used vaguely, if you consult various dictionaries and grammars. But some people try and pin it down and fix a more particular meaning, so it's this-but-not-that. Don't believe anyone who insists on a narrower meaning.

In semantics and lexicography it's differentiated from a polyseme: homonymy is where you have two different headwords, usually because they're etymologically different; while polysemy is where the same word is listed as having several senses.

This distinction is blurred, and I'd say it was almost arbitrary in semantics. In a dictionary you do have to decide whether to list homographs separately or as multiple senses. Etymology will be a guide but not infallible. For example, 'fair' meaning a market is from Latin, and is unrelated to the other senses of Germanic 'fair'. But these senses -- blonde; beautiful; equal; just; very -- are all related, and have evolved by polysemic extension. But today you'd hardly want to say they're all merely polysemes.

True polysemy is of this kind: cut the grass, cut the cake, cut the budget, cut classes. These are all quite different actions, yet you instinctively feel there's the same idea in them all.

Excellent explanation of homo-nym/-phone/-graph.

I once collected multiple-homo-sets. For example:

bow-bend at the waist/bow-front of a ship
bow-arrow/bow-in hair/bough-branch/beau-and jo

RJA

Yes, thanks, aput, for that wonderful discussion.

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I once collected multiple-homo-sets.

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So did I!!! You know, some were good at culture...others at design...one guy knew exactly what you should wear..

Oh. Wait. Sorry, read that wrong. (Of course they all went on a show called 'Queer Eye for the Straight Guy' and lived happily ever after.)

Oh, everyone wanted to make that stupid lame joke. You know you did.

Congratulations to Robert Arvanitus (from the Latin meaning "inflamation of the Robert Arvan") on his recent promotion from "junior member" to "member." As one of the most erudite posters we've ever had, that "jr." always made me smile a bit.

We've picked up several erudite posters recently. While my brain is getting stretched a bit too much, still, it is great!

I had occasion to use the word "meddle" today (as I was "meddling" in someone's business ), and then I realized that there is a "mettle," a "medal," and a "metal."

I suppose the "d's" separate 2 of the words. Yet, are "metal" and "mettle" or "medal" and "meddle" considered to be homonymy words?

Quote "...Yet, are "metal" and "mettle" or "medal" and "meddle" considered to be homonymy words..."

Not in the UK, that's for sure! The middle "t" is pronounced as a "t" in UK English - very different from the way in which we would pronounce a middle "d".

Many in the US pronounce metal and mettle the same. The intervocalic 't' is not an alveolar stop like in stop or top (both of which 't's are different in pronunciation, both are voiceless alveolar stops, but the 't' in stop is unaspiracted, and BTW the 't' in hot is different, too, it's an unreleased stop). Rather the 't' in metal, mettle, city, etc. is actually an alveolar tap, like the 'r' in Spanish pero 'but'. Medal and meddle are homonyms in the US.

"Metal" and "meddle" are homonyms if you are a lazy speaker.

I suppose the "d's" separate 2 of the words. CJ, Richard, I did separate the 2 "d" words and the 2 "t's" words.

Quote "...CJ, Richard, I did separate the 2 "d" words and the 2 "t's" words..."

Ah, the problems of communication...

I don't believe that pronuciation of metal/mettle (or medal/meddle) differ, the geminate stops ('tt') and 'dd') are purely visual, to either "lazy" or "energetic" speakers, at least in US speech.

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Originally posted by jheem:
I don't believe that pronuciation of metal/mettle (or medal/meddle) differ, the geminate stops ('tt') and 'dd') are purely visual, to either "lazy" or "energetic" speakers, at least in US speech.

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Oh my goodness, I get to disagree with jheem! It's like beating your father at chess for the first time when you were a teenager.

Without going so far as declaring myself Grand Vizier of Geminate Stops (as if I knew just what they are) let me jump in and say that, yes, I very much DO pronounce the "T" in "metal" so that is audibly distinguishable from "meddle." I'm sure R.E. and most of our British friends would agree along with maybe half my fellow Americans. Maybe more, though we do tend to be lazy about things like this.


Then again, this is coming from the guy who hears a difference between "horse" and "hoarse" which, sadly, is just the sort of thing that keeps me from becoming Grand Vizier...

All of these rhyme perfectly in my dialect:

coarse
course
force
gorse
hoarse
horse
Morse
Norse
source

C.J., I'm interested in the difference you hear between "horse" and "hoarse." Can you describe that difference?

Quote "...All of these rhyme perfectly in my dialect..."

And indeed sauce

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Originally posted by jerry thomas:
_C.J.,_ I'm interested in the difference you hear between "horse" and "hoarse." Can you describe that difference?

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I've tried elsewhere. The "A" in "hoarse" adds just the slightest tint of lightness to the word making it roughly a hemi-demi-semi-tone higher that "horse." How's that for a half-assed explanation!?

I've just now realized that this same thing applies (to me anyway, and remember it's just this side of being non-existant even to my ear) with the words "oar" and "or." The additional difference which just came to mind is that "or" is a simple straight-forward one-syllable word while "oar" is just very slightly more. Not two whole syllables, not by a long shot, but maybe somewhere around 1 1/4 syllables if that makes any sense to you.


(Yes, yes, I know, it doesn't. But I swear I'm not making this up.)

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Originally posted by jheem:
I don't believe that pronuciation of metal/mettle (or medal/meddle) differ, the geminate stops ('tt') and 'dd') are purely visual, to either "lazy" or "energetic" speakers, at least in US speech.

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Like CJ I get to disagree with jheem here. For me there is a distinct though subtle difference here. I'm no expert so I don't have the specific terminolgy but I'll give it a shot in layman's terms.

Metal: For the "t" sound my tongue starts against the front of the roof of my mouth, pulls back and then goes forward again to finish against my top teeth.

Mettle : My tongue starts at my top teeth and stays there.

The sound this makes is quite clearly different, the second syllable being "swallowed" into an indistinct "ull" sound.

jerry thomas: C.J., I'm interested in the difference you hear between "horse" and "hoarse." Can you describe that difference?

Some may remember this TV show theme-song:

A horse is a horse, of course, of course,
And no one can talk to a horse, of course,
That is, of course, unless the horse, is the famous Mr. Ed.

Go right to the source source and ask the horse.
He'll give you the answer that you'll endorse.
He's always on a steady course.
Talk to Mr. Ed.

People yakkity yak a streak and waste your time of day
But Mister Ed will never speak unless he has something to say.

A horse is a horse, of course, of course,
And this one'll talk 'til his voice is hoarse.
You never heard of a talking horse?

Well listen to this.
....
I am Mister Ed.

[This message was edited by wordnerd on Tue Mar %76, 2004 at 20:02.]

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yes, I very much DO pronounce the "T" in "metal" so that is audibly distinguishable from "meddle."

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Sorry, but I was vague wasn't I. I was saying that I pronounce metal and mettle as homonyms, and ditto for medal and meddle. In less careful, less formal speech, I pronounce metal and medal the same.

Ah, but Mr Ed was a zebra, not a horse.

http://www.snopes.com/lost/mistered.asp

arnie, please don't start all that again !

This time CJ and I will not be clueless!

Mr. Ed was a zebra? Really? Is there some authoritative source on the net to back this up??

Mr. Ed a zebra? I don't think so. Still, stranger things have happened. There have been a lot of characters played by jackasses!

Tinman

See This Thread for the whole sordid story of the joke that threatened to split our little community assunder - and all down to that very site you reference !

(OK I'm exagerating just a bit !)

My, this thread did diverge, didn't it?

I received this from my logophile friend:

"Homophones" are words which are identical in pronunciation but different in meaning or derivation or spelling, such as rite, write, right, and wright, or rain and reign.

"Heteronyms" are words which are identical in spelling but different in meaning and pronunciation, such as sow, to scatter seed, and sow, a female hog.

"Homographs" are words which are identical in spelling but different in meaning and derivation or pronunciation, such as pine, to yearn for, and pine, a tree, or the bow of a ship and a bow and arrow.

quote:

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Originally posted by BobHale:
Metal: For the "t" sound my tongue starts against the front of the roof of my mouth, pulls back and then goes forward again to finish against my top teeth.

Mettle : My tongue starts at my top teeth and stays there.

The sound this makes is quite clearly different, the second syllable being "swallowed" into an indistinct "ull" sound.

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For a self-styled layman this is a remarkably accurate description of a difference I didn't know anyone had, but which makes perfect sense. In 'metal' you're pronouncing a schwa (neutral vowel) between the two consonants, while in 'mettle' the [l] is syllabic.

Both pronunciations are normal, but I would have expected the two words to be homophones for everyone, and they used either the one or the other for both: or perhaps the schwa in more careful speech and the syllabic L in more casual speech.

In real life, is Mickey Mouse a dog? Or a cat?

A mouse. We have lots of mickeys running around.