CW used the phrase "tit for tat". Where does that phrase come from?

A little googling turned up an explanation qualified by "perhaps" or "probably". Does it strike you as likely? Any alternatives?

The Straight Dope says it's a corruption of "tip for tap".

The Mavens' Word of the Day says it is probably a variant of "tip for tap".

Origin of Phrases gives a definition sent in so it is only anecdotal: from the German phrase "Dir fur Dat", or this for that.

The Soul Journey blog says it comes from the Dutch "dit vor dat", although it also mentions the "tip for tap" etymology.

I'd be inclined towards the "tip for tap" origin personally.

A frustrated mother named Pat
Had triplets named Tom, Tim, and Tat.
It was fine in the breeding,
But not in the feeding,
For, you see, there was no tit for Tat.

from "When You're Good to Mama" in _Chicago_:


They say that life is tit for tat
And that's the way I live -
So, I deserve a lot of tat
For what I've got to give!

As arnie notes, Maven's Word of the Day, which arnie notes, says, "Both tit and tat are archaic words meaning 'a light blow'. Really? I don't find any such meaning of 'tit' or 'tat' in the online version of either Bailey's Dictionary or Grose's Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue.

Straight Dope modifies the same theory a bit, saying that the original phrase was 'tip for tap,' blow for blow, and was later corrupted. Well, a 'tap' is of course a light blow, but I don't find any such meaning of 'tip' (except perhaps in the game of nine-pins [bowling]).

Also, if 'tit for tat' were rooted in 'tip' and 'tap', wouldn't it pertain only to blows that were light, almost friendly ones, a gentle tap? But to me it means any retribution in kind, whether light or heavy.

Accordingly, I'm leery of this theory.

The last paragraph of the Mavens' article says:

quote:

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The phrase tit for tat is first found in the sixteenth century. It is probably a variant of tip for tap, of similar origin but found a century earlier. The tip in this earlier phrase is the same word as in the baseball expression "a foul tip."

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I don't believe that "tip for tap" really means ony "light" retribution. Even if it were to do so, there is no reason why the meaning should not have changed slightly over the intervening six centuries.

There was a young laddie named Tat,
Who fell for a lassie named Pat.
Oh, he wanted to wed,
Or at least take her to bed,
But Pat had no tit for Tat.

Tinman

I withdraw my objection, based on this:

And much greater is the wrong that rewardeth evil for good than that which requireth tip for tap.
- The Adventures of Master F. J. by George Gascoigne, 1573 (cited in a later Mavens' item, though with the date 1575)

Nice discussion and I love the verses!

When I think of "tit for tat," I remember the "Friends" episode.

Kalleh- that is a fabulous link. I don't always like that show, but there are often good lines like "I'm not showing her my tat." Very nice writing!

Charles E. Funk gives the tip for tap story in his A Hog on Ice, 1948.

The OED (1st edition):

tip, sb2. The act of tipping, a light, but distinct impact, blow, stroke, or hit; a noiseless tap; a significant touch. Tip for tap = tit for tat. Foul tip (baseball) a foul hit in which the ball is only grazed. [...] 1573. Gascoigne. Adv. F. I. Wks. II. 249. Much greater is the wrong that rewardeth euill for good, than that which requiteth [pr. requireth] tip for tap.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jheem,

I can remember as a child playing a version of cricket called "tip and run". Unlike (I understand) baseball, if you hit the ball you don't have to run in normal cricket. In tip and run, however, you have to run, with the consequent much higher chance of being "run out".