It will be interesting to see where the respondents giving the correct answer hail from and whether each had a classical education!

I know the term. In fact, in its original setting, starting two lines above its usage, we find this:

"A carrion Death, within whose empty eye
There is a written scroll I'll read the writing."

In High School, I made a film called Death's Empty Eye.

I could just be quiet and then no one would know the one person here who didn't know the word. Sheesh, if only I had checked the results first!

As I always say, I have so much to learn...and so little time to do it!

Your poll has only five choices. There should be a sixth: "I don't know."

Tinman

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if only I had checked the results first!

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I don't think you're allowed to see the results before you vote.

Well, honestly, I wouldn't cheat...just check my bluffing game answers to verify that! I was only kidding.

The fact is, many of our bluffing game words are somewhat useless (some Norwegian bush or whatever), but this seems to be a very useful word, especially when using it for printed swears. I am not sure what I would have called those swear symbols.

So what IS the name for those symbols? Is there one?

Did I misunderstand? Isn't it "glisters?"

Nope - that was one of the daffynitions.

Oh, now I really feel like a fool! I misread that stupid graph. Yep, I really must go back to 3rd grade. That's it!

I agree, though, there should be a word for those keyboard swears.

I would have never picked the real definition of "glisters." It seemed so fake to me!

3rd grade sounds nice until I remember what the other kids were like. Nasty!

I'm so confused... Which definition is correct?

Am I dumber than a box of rocks? (What movie is that from?)

Help!

All that glisters is not gold.

I'm so confused... Which definition is correct?

Well, thank goodness I am not alone, KHC! BTW, I don't know what movie it's from, but I remember laughing so hard when a dean told me recently that her faculty members were dumber than a box of rocks! I had these visions of the each of her faculty members as rocks.

All that glisters is not gold.

You see, Bob, that is precisely why I wouldn't have chosen that definiton. It is way to close to "glitters." It sounds like a mondegreen to me.

It is way to close to "glitters." It sounds like a mondegreen to me.

Glitter and glister (as well as glisten) are ultimately from the same root *ghel- 'to shine'. Glitter was borrowed into Middle English from Old Norse and glister is from Middle Dutch. Glisten is the original word from Old English.

Can a person get blisters from bliss?
Can a body get glisters from gliss?
Though you may think me daft,
Blame the WordCrafter's craft
For making me ponder on this.

Blame the WordCrafter's craft
For making me ponder on this.
And, who says we don't have fun here?!

Glitter and glister (as well as glisten) are ultimately from the same root

Ahh, I get it. Much like "blister," "blisten," and "blitter."

BTW, is there a word for those keyboard swears? Probably not.

Jerry, your poem is absolutely delightful! Bravo!

Okay, I am in that Bluffing Game mode... don't look at the dictionary... but I did... now I'm informed!

All that glisters is not gold. jerry... you are a poet.

"All that glisters is not gold" is the correct quotation. However, along with "Paint the lily" (usually misquoted as "Gild the lily") and "Lay on Macduff" (usually misquoted as "Lead on Macduff"), this saying is usually misquoted as "All the glitters is not gold".

As I implied, those who had had a classical education (and especially those who have studied "The Merchant of Venice") should have no problems with this word.

correct quotation

As well as "Alas, poor Yorick. I knew him Horatio." Instead of the misquotation "Alas, poor Yorick. I knew him well".

Or "Hubble bubble, toil and trouble." instead of the correct quote: "Double double, toil and trouble", from the witches in the "Scottish Play"

As I implied, those who had had a classical education (and especially those who have studied "The Merchant of Venice") should have no problems with this word.

Yes, yes, Richard. I am a doofus ( that's an inside joke!), I know. Richard sent me this site that explains it.

My logophile friend also filled me in that it was said by Portia in "The Merchant of Venice."

I should have known the word and especially the phrase. I have read "Merchant of Venice" and seen the play.

To answer CJ's opening statement: "I was recently chided for not being familiar with this word which, frankly, I didn't think was fair."...it probably was fair.

It must be so nice to those who had a classical education to know the precise definition of every word in the English language. I am still learning.. still curious.. still open minded.

Happy Holidays to All!

The quote I know is:

All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king.

-- J.R.R. Tolkien (from 'The Lord of the Rings')

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Caterwauller,

Amen, CW, Amen....

KHC, I agree with your comment, and, as I have told Richard privately, I don't think not knowing the word "glisters" has anything to do with not having a "classical education."

Still, I regret that I hadn't remembered the phrase from my studies of Shakespeare.

I see I have unwittingly created a minor ruckus by commenting about classicalthe UK and the US; I do not think my classical education remark would have engendered more than a wry smile over here. My comment was not supposed to imply that those who have a classical education have a supreme knowledge of everything written by Shakespeare and other classical writers nor yet that those who did not study the classics are stupid or ignorant.

Unfortunately, as I know has happened previously, my light-hearted comments have been taken amiss and this worries me since it makes me feel that maybe I shouldn't continue to make analytical comments.

Those who have been posting here for some time will maybe have noticed that I now rarely comment on international matters since I have found to my chagrin that any comments which might imply, not matter how slightly, that there is maybe something wrong with the "American way" will get a rapid and stinging riposte from somebody.

I post on this board for enjoyment, not for reasons of self-importance and I certainly do not want to cause offence. So let me therefore say: the comment about a classical education was "tongue in cheek" and I am only sorry that it might have upset anyone. Those who know me will be aware that I detest argument and strife and I will not be party to it.

So far as the Tolkein quote is concerned, it seems very likely that more people of the present generation will know it than know Shakespeare since Tolkein's works are probably more widely read. Whether his was a deliberate misquotation (because the verb "glisters" is now rarely used) or whether he had not troubled to check the source, I cannot hazard a guess.

Well, Tolkein's education was the epitome of "classical" and I find it difficult to believe that a logophile like Tolkein would not know the true quote.

I suspect he used "glitter" because it fits better into the rhyme (although "glitter/wither" would not get past the OEDILF editors I suspect) . Also, since Shakespeare did not exist in Tolkein's universe, why should The Lord of the Rings quote him?

"All that glisters is not gold." I'm not sure that I had a classical education, but I took a Shakespeare class in high school and it was a lot of fun. We just read a bunch of plays, The Merchant of Venice amongst them, out loud in class. When we read the scenes with the three caskets, I noticed that the text I usually heard "All that glitters is not gold" was not what was in the text of the play. I remembered that; others may have forgotten. I also noticed "Alas, poor Yorick. I knew him Horatio" rather than with "well" as the final word which is what I neard from the vox populi for years leading up to my first reading of Hamlet. Who know? Surely not I, but the phrase may not be original to Shakespeare. It has the gnomic style of a folk saying or proverb. There's no discernible difference between the glisters or the glitters versions. I would be surprised if Professor Tolkien, whose field of study was the history of the English language and its literature, did not know the saying and was making a wry comment on it in his poem.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jheem,

Heaven forfend that I should be thought to be casting aspersions on Tolkein's learning. I was merely voicing two possible reasons, as I saw them, for his not using the correct quotation.

I wonder whether there is merit in starting again a thread about popular misquotations? I am the acme of pedantry insofar as this is concerned and would find this an interesting topic.

I generally just asume you're being lighthearted, RE, although I know some folks might take offense. I have enjoyed your posts!

I would even think it's funny if you WERE always saying the UK was better than the US. I can take it. I think we can have a good time and not get sniffy about things. Can't we?

Also, I think the Tolkein will be well known now for a long time, what with the renewed interest (thanks to Hollywood).

Sorry, RE, that I was "shirty" and "sniffy"... must be holiday stress.

Here's to a wonderful holiday and a healthy New Year for everyone... I would salute you with a cask-brewed (?) ale, if I knew where to get one!

I am sorry as well. It surely wasn't a big thing, Richard. It's just that everyone (at least here on wordcraft) likes to think that he or she had a "classical education." The problem is remembering it all!

Now, Richard, surely we Americans can take it when you bring up subjects that not all Americans agree with. After all, didn't the Brits invent everything anyway? Believe me, we aren't that thin-skinned here...and we surely are not all on the same page politically or any other way. That's what I like about this site...the diversity!

I wonder whether there is merit in starting again a thread about popular misquotations?

We have talked about this within threads, but maybe someone should start a thread focusing on misquotations. I think it would be a great thread. We did talk about some here and also here. Richard, how's about starting it?

Over here the conventional meaning of "classical education" involves learning Latin or Ancient Greek or both at school so I'd be very surprised if many of us do have one.
(I did one year of Latin before switching to German as a rather more practical option.)

Over here the conventional meaning of "classical education" involves learning Latin or Ancient Greek or both

I don't think we really talk about "classical educations" here, though I had taken it to mean a liberal education. Generally, people who study something specific, like nursing, pre-med, engineering, etc., will have fewer liberal arts courses because of the requirements of their majors. Pre-law students are an exception to this. While some parents push a liberal arts education (we have for each of our 3 kids), it would mean taking more courses if the student wanted to major in something like pre-med.

It just so happens I did have 2 years of Latin, though I am sure our in-house Latin expert, arnie, doesn't believe it for a minute!

I have an excellent liberal arts education! We sometimes refer to it as majoring in Fast Food Service, being as there are so many folks out of work with those kinds of degrees! Ha!

My personal undergrad degree is literally only good if you're going to grad school, as there are no jobs that say they need someone with a B.A. in History. I was planning on grad school all along, but changed what kind after getting my first degree. And, surprise to you all, I did actually study Koine Greek for 2 years. I've forgotten it all, just about, but there you have it!

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our in-house Latin expert, arnie

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Hey, steady on! I did take five years of Latin at school, it is true, but have forgotten a great deal. A number of other Wordcrafters have displayed a better knowledge of Latin than I have.

I was slightly bemused by Richard's mention of a "classical" education", as, like Bob, I thought of Latin and/or Greek as essential elements of such an education, and couldn't see the connection.

Although I took Eng Lit for several years, I feel pretty sure that I didn't pick up the word "glister" from there. In fact I think it came from one of those newspaper articles on common misquotes that appears every now and then when there is some space to fill.

I simply thought that by classical education, Richard meant an old-fashioned one with emphasis on fast food service kinds of knowledge (such as English literature, dead languages, etc.). The etymology of classical is interesting; it ultimately derives from the Latin word classis which meant a rank or division of the Roman people and is related to the verb clamo 'to call'. It also meant fleet. In the strangeness department, it yielded in French glas 'death knell'.

I never found the major subject of an undergraduate degree to have much of a correlation to the kind of job-worthiness that some parents worry about. In the computer industry, some of the best programmers I've met had degrees in anything but computer science: e.g., lots of natural sciences, math, but also music, English literature, linguistics. In fact, at my job, a new programmer they just hired has a classical degree (i.e., he studied the Latin and Greek languages and literatures). A BA/BS should just prepare you for just about any job. I always suggest to high school students that they follow their bliss and learn how to learn. That'll come in handy in whatever job they get.

Hey, steady on! First off, Arnie, we Americans would say "hold on!" I love those British-American nuances. Secondly, you are far too modest!

Jheem, I do agree with you about the undergraduate degree not being related to the job. Indeed, your comment about advising high school students to follow their bliss and learn how to learn is an excellent one. Before I met my husband I used to think that the graduate degree was most important. However, I learned from him that it's the earlier education that is much more important. That love of reading and writing and of learning...that's what's important. Learning to how to think and to problem solve and to communicate those thoughts is essential.

I find a true liberal arts education (perhaps what Richard meant?) to be very valuable throughout life. One can always learn the job specifics either on the job or in further education. That is why I abhor the Associate Degree nursing education here, which is about 70 credits or so. It is only about nursing, and the prerequisites are completely devoid of liberal arts courses, unlike the Baccalaureate nursing education. Interestingly most countries including Canada, Ireland, and Australia have begun to require the Baccalaureate degree in nursing.

Quote, "...I simply thought that by classical education, Richard meant an old-fashioned one with emphasis on fast food service kinds of knowledge (such as English literature, dead languages, etc.). ..."

That's just what I did mean. Its a common enough cliche here which doesn't necessarily means any more than the implication that a person has had that kind of education that included a basic study of Latin, Literature, etc.

Quite often, when a person makes some fairly erudite point, someone will say something like, "...Ah, the wonders of a classical education, eh? Now, whose round is it...?"

It was in that sense that I used to expression and it deserves no great analysis!

Quote, "... I would salute you with a cask-brewed (?) ale, if I knew where to get one!..."

You don't say where you are in GA, but this link will give you the names of a few places where you could start your search.

http://www.realbeer.com/cgi-bin/realbeer/search/rb_brewtour.cgi

And thank you for your good wishes; I have been enjoying a few nice pints and intend to continue in like mode!

KHC, I found this place listed on the U.S. Cask Database as being the only place in Georgia with cask conditioned beer. There is a Rock Bottom in Chicago (Richard, you were there), and it is good. I suggest you call first, though, because I have found many pubs in the U.S. to be out of their cask conditioned beers.

Rock Bottom Restaurant and Brewery
3242 Peachtree Road NE
Atlanta, Georgia, 30305
Phone: 1 404 264 0253

Its a common enough cliche here which doesn't necessarily means any more than the implication that a person has had that kind of education that included a basic study of Latin, Literature, etc.

Just checking, Richard...do they teach about apostrophes in this "classical education" over there in England?

Quote, "...Just checking, Richard...do they teach about apostrophes in this "classical education" over there in England?..."

Indeed they do - but just as is the case with "glisters" one just occasionally forgets (or maybe miss-types>

We're all so very human! Good to know it's not just me.

Well, as one who makes way more than my share of mistakes here, I generally don't highlight another's error. However, given the previous discussion, I just couldn't help myself!

Besides, I know that Richard will have a cask ale and then forgive me.

Quote "...Besides, I know that Richard will have a cask ale and then forgive me...."

Tonight it's a few pints of Harvey's Mild at the Garland. But there's nothing to forgive; I have no problem with having my errors highlighted - how else could I correct them?

"I know that Richard will have a cask ale and then forgive me."

Your sin is as scarlet, and it will take far more than 'one" cask ale before Richard will forgive you. But I have no doubt that Richard, as a gentleman, will resolutely steel himself to consume the necessary quantity.