Why doesn't "vegetarian" mean "herbivore"? The word appears to suggest one who only eats vegetation, yet somebody popped up with "vegan" some years back - and they don't even pronounce it as if it were related. "Omnivore" means what it says, as does "carnivore," so why don't vegetation-only eaters know what they are? Why aren't they called "herbivores?"

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff:
Why doesn't "vegetarian" mean "herbivore"?

But... it does.

Not really, goofy. You can be a "vegetarian" and still eat eggs and cheese and other dairy products. I have to agree with Geoff. I, too, have wondered the same thing.

I think vegan, a term older than I am, dating back to the '40s, was coined to exclude those who call themselves vegetarians, but eat dairy and/or eggs. Somebody described himself as a vegetarian to me the other day, but it turns out he eats fish. My wife and I used to kid about folks we called California vegetarians, who ate chicken. Like most words, there are probably as many meanings to the term vegetarian as they are people who practice it. Herbivore, to me, sounds like an ungulate.

Well to be honest I wasn't really sure what Geoff was asking. If he is asking why do vegetarians eat dairy when the word "vegetarian" is derived from the word "vegetable"... well maybe it's simply because vegetarians eat mostly vegetables.

Vegan is from 1944 "A person who on principle abstains from all food of animal origin; a strict vegetarian." The citation explains the origin of the word:

quote:

1944 D. Watson in Vegan News Nov. 2 ‘Vegetarian’ and ‘Fruitarian’ are already associated with societies that allow the ‘fruits’ of cows and fowls, therefore‥. we must make a new and appropriate word.‥ I have used the title ‘The Vegan News’. Should we adopt this, our diet will soon become known as the vegan diet, and we should aspire to the rank of vegans.

I think vegetarians aren't called herbivores because "herbivore" "omnivore" and "carnivore" are usually used for animals.

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If he is asking why do vegetarians eat dairy when the word "vegetarian" is derived from the word "vegetable"... well maybe it's simply because vegetarians eat mostly vegetables.

No they don't. Many eat lots of eggs, cheese, dairy, etc. There is not limit on how much animal protein "general" vegetarians (my term for them) eat. That's why I've questioned the word.

I just looked it up, and, according to this site , the vegetarian I described above is the lacto-ovo-vegetarian. Then there is just the ovo-vegetarian. Z, there apparently is a vegetarian who eats fish...the "pescatarian." Then for your California vegetarians who occasionally eat meat, there is the flexitarian/semi-vegetarian.

I do feel a little bad for the raw vegan, who can't eat any processed vegan foods, and they can't be heated above 115 degrees Fahrenheit.

The macrobiotic diet is way too complicated to explain. You'll have to read about that one. It is unique in its emphasis on daikon and sea vegetables.

By this description, the word "vegetarian" really never should be used. It's not descriptive enough.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:

By this description, the word "vegetarian" really never should be used. It's not descriptive enough.

That's not a very good linguistic argument. You could extend it to almost any word.

For example, you can't use the word table, because it doesn't specify whether it's a table for dining, a table for playing cards oon, a table for standing ornaments on, a table for working on etc.

A vegetarian is someone who doesn't eat meat. Which variety of vegetarian may be a distinction they will insist on when being served food but whichever specific type of vegetarian they are, then they are still vegetarians.



As for herbivore, it's entirely different. A herbivore is a creature biologically adapted to eat vegetables rather than one who makes a choice about the matter.

That's my view anyway.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BobHale,

quote:

Originally posted by BobHale:


As for herbivore, it's entirely different. A herbivore is a creature biologically adapted to eat vegetables rather than one who makes a choice about the matter.

That's my view anyway.

That fits with Z's "ungulate" comment. I see I'm wrong on that point, since vegetation includes more than grasses. Perhaps I should suggest that a vegetarian is one who eschews food that can run, fly, or swim away, or any secretions from those foods. That might include honey, yet few eat bees.

Perhaps you're wrong about the herbivore definition, but I don't think you are wrong, Geoff, to be confused about the word "vegetarian." The word "vegetarian" has evolved to mean something that it originally hadn't meant. I guess that happens often enough (such as the definition of "moot"), but it is confusing. For example, here is the first definition of "vegetarian" in the gold standard, the OED:

quote:

a. One who lives wholly or principally upon vegetable foods; a person who on principle abstains from any form of animal food, or at least such as is obtained by the direct destruction of life.

That is different from saying it's someone who "doesn't eat meat." It would not include eggs and dairy.

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That's not a very good linguistic argument. You could extend it to almost any word.

I didn't mean it as a "linguistic argument," I suppose, since I am not a linguist. But, I did mean that the word is confusing, as evidenced by much of the discussion here.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,

quote:

one who lives wholly or principally upon vegetable foods

(My emphasis)

That allows vegetarians to make exceptions, such as fish, honey, and so on.

I was afraid you'd focus on that.

Often I will bow to others here (as I did to Bob in the thread about serving whomever is next), but this time I just can't give in. I think vegetarian means that you eat vegetables. I guess then you would describe it in more detail with the "ovo" or "pescatarian" or "lacto" or whatever.

Of course, if you look at it my way then "vegan" wouldn't be needed...so maybe I am wrong. Drat the thought!

Vegan was obviously coined because of the problems with what vegetarian covered.

Slightly off point but I found this one interesting.


Dieting Myths Explained

A classic. OK, that means "oldie but goodie.

Q: I've heard that cardiovascular exercise can prolong life. Is this true?

A: Your heart is only good for so many beats, and that's it ....don't waste them on exercise. Everything wears out eventually. Speeding up your heart will not make you live longer; that's like saying you can extend the life of your car by driving it faster. Want to live longer? Take a nap.

Q: Should I cut down on meat and eat more fruits and vegetables?

A: You must grasp logistical efficiencies. What does a cow eat? Hay and corn. And what are these? Vegetables. So a steak is nothing more than an efficient mechanism of delivering vegetables to your system. Need grain? Eat chicken. Beef is also a good source of field grass (green leafy vegetable). And a pork chop can give you 100% of your recommended daily allowance of vegetable products.

Q: Is beer or wine bad for me?

A: Look, it goes to the earlier point about fruits and vegetables. As we all know, scientists divide everything in the world into three categories: animal, mineral, and vegetable. We all know that beer and wine are not animal, and they are not on the periodic table of elements, so that only leaves one thing, right? My advice: Have a burger and a beer and enjoy your liquid vegetables.

Q: How can I calculate my body/fat ratio?

A: Well, if you have a body, and you have body fat, your ratio is one to one. If you have two bodies, your ratio is two to two, etc.

Q: What are some of the advantages of participating a regular exercise program?

A: Can't think of a single one, sorry. My philosophy is: No Pain...Good.

Q: Aren't fried foods bad for you?

A: You're not listening. Foods are fried these days in vegetable oil. In fact, they're permeated in it. How could getting more vegetables be bad for you?

Q: What's the secret to healthy eating?

A: Thicker gravy.

Q: Will sit-ups help prevent me from getting a little soft around the middle?

A: Definitely not! When you exercise a muscle, it gets bigger. You should only be doing sit-ups if you want a bigger stomach.

Q: Is chocolate bad for me?

A: Are you crazy? Hello! Cocoa beans? Another vegetable! It's the best feel good food around!

--
I hope this has cleared up any misconceptions you may have had about food and diets. Have a cookie -- flour is a veggie! One more thing: When life hands you lemons, ask for a bottle of tequila and salt.

Posted recntly on Jumbo Joke site but, as he says, it's an oldie but goodie.

Personally, I think vegetarians, or vegans, are all wrong in their dieting. We are omnivores and, while we can doubtless survive on a totally begetable diet, we will suffer from a lack of animal proteins necessary for a well-rounded diet.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:

quote:

If he is asking why do vegetarians eat dairy when the word "vegetarian" is derived from the word "vegetable"... well maybe it's simply because vegetarians eat mostly vegetables.

No they don't. Many eat lots of eggs, cheese, dairy, etc. There is not limit on how much animal protein "general" vegetarians (my term for them) eat. That's why I've questioned the word.

Vegetarians don't eat mostly vegetables?

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
The word "vegetarian" has evolved to mean something that it originally hadn't meant. I guess that happens often enough (such as the definition of "moot"), but it is confusing. For example, here is the first definition of "vegetarian" in the gold standard, the OED:

quote:

a. One who lives wholly or principally upon vegetable foods; a person who on principle abstains from any form of animal food, or at least such as is obtained by the direct destruction of life.

That is different from saying it's someone who "doesn't eat meat." It would not include eggs and dairy.

I am so confused, Kalleh. I don't any difference between that OED definition and the modern definition of vegetarian. Also, I don't see why the OED definition can't include eating eggs and dairy. I mean I consider myself a vegetarian, and I eat dairy, and what I think of "vegetarian" is pretty much the same as the OED definition.

To my way of thinking, this flick is touting a vegetarian diet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ijukNzlUg

Why do so-called "vegans" pronounce it so oddly? It sounds like a character from a sci-fi movie.

Why do so-called "vegans" pronounce it so oddly? It sounds like a character from a sci-fi movie.

'Cause that's how Donald Watson decided the word should be pronounced when he coined it in 1943 (link). This is one of the side-effects of ideology, is this ability to split hairs and fracture off into schisms. Why is it that "plants" have smaller "souls" than creatures with a central nervous system?

quote:

Originally posted by zmježd:
Why is it that "plants" have smaller "souls" than creatures with a central nervous system?

Who said that?

Who said that?

I think it was me, but I posed it as a question.

quote:

Originally posted by zmježd:
I think it was me, but I posed it as a question.

I thought it was a quote, since you used quotation marks. I can't answer the question since my vegetarianism has nothing to do with souls, small or otherwise.

quote:

I am so confused, Kalleh. I don't any difference between that OED definition and the modern definition of vegetarian. Also, I don't see why the OED definition can't include eating eggs and dairy. I mean I consider myself a vegetarian, and I eat dairy, and what I think of "vegetarian" is pretty much the same as the OED definition.

To me the word would indicate that vegetarian means you eat vegetables. However, clearly that isn't what it means, you are correct, goofy. So I guess it's I who is confused. I think the word should mean eating only vegetables, but apparently it doesn't.

quote:

I think the word should mean eating only vegetables, but apparently it doesn't.

And a moot point should mean one that should be discussed further, but apparently it doesn't.

I thought it was a quote, since you used quotation marks.

Those were scare quotes (link) around the words plants and souls. I really don't believe in souls or "souls". The jury is still out on plants. I just don't really understand what this thread is "about", and when a thread loses its meaning for me, I get "silly". Sorry. The word vegetarian is used by all kinds of people to mean a whole bunch of different things, mostly depending on what food items the meaner will eat. That vegetarian is etymologically related to vegetable really has no bearing on its current meaning in English. As with the meanings of most words, it is only by usage that the meaning(s) of the word can be determined. The best ad hoc definition of vegetarian I once heard from an MD was: "(They) don't eat anything with a face."

quote:

"(They) don't eat anything with a face."

Yet fish is in?

[Zmjezhd: Sorry, Proof, I edited your post, rather than starting a new one. I think I have it back to its original content.]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: zmježd,

There's one advantage to eating lots of veggies, as these folks can attest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?a...DhDRvHaGs&feature=iv

Yet fish is in?

Not by my doctor's definition, but, as I have been insisting, there are as many different definitions of vegetarianism as stars in the sky.

quote:

And a moot point should mean one that should be discussed further, but apparently it doesn't.

Tu che!

Being omnivorous, I generally tend not to care about all the distinctions among types of vegetarians, but find I feel comfortable with the OED definition of "vegetarian." Kalleh, how will you label the vegetarian offerings at your daughter's wedding reception? And, is that this weekend or next?

:-)

Wordmatic

quote:

Originally posted by wordmatic:
Kalleh, how will you label the vegetarian offerings at your daughter's wedding reception? And, is that this weekend or next?

So, if I had only read "Community" before I wrote that, I would have known to put it into past tense. Congratulations! How did you label the vegetarian fare at your daughter's wedding reception?

WM

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
Tu che!

Does that mean, "tushie?" Won't Shu be jealous?

Or a new form of Tai Chi?

Is that how you spell tu che? I thought so, by looking it up in Google, but I wasn't sure. I say it, but I don't write it.

Wordmatic, it is so good to see you back! We had 4 menu items for the brunch and 4 for the dinner, and our guests had to figure out what was vegetarian, if they were so inclined. I am pretty sure at least one guest was. At brunch there were two vegetarian entrees, an oatmeal with some fancy granola, and a wonderful egg white, vegetable frittata. For the dinner the vegetarian entree was a mushroom ravioli (it was an Italian restaurant), which was what I had. Luscious! I had salmon for the brunch. Again...wonderful!

I just spoke with someone (from Minnesota so not even in a high-cost city) who was at a wedding that cost...get this...$100,000! They had an open bar, for 175 people, from 5:30 pm to 1:00 am. That'll do it! I can assure you, Catherine's wedding, which I admit was quite small, didn't cost anything close to that.

You can't get away with anything around here, Kalleh.
toche - "An extreamly attractive woman, with a beautiful smile, and a great personality." (from a most erudite source - Urban Dictionary)

I think you meant touché .
 

To be serious for a minute, the word Kalleh is looking for is the French touché (literally, "touched". It's a fencing term, used to acknowledge when the opponent has scored a hit.

I had a feeling it was incorrect. I am glad I can't get away with anything here! Thanks for correctly me so gently.

According to the North American Vegetarian Society, today is Vegetarian Day worldwide.

So Happy Broccoli to all! I am pea-sed to make this announcement.

Among the many vegarians to be found are Bill Clinton and singer Emmy Lou Harris. Whether comedian Carrottop is one beets me.

quote:

Originally posted by Proofreader:
According to the North American Vegetarian Society, today is Vegetarian Day worldwide.

So Happy Broccoli to all! I am pea-sed to make this announcement.

Among the many vegarians to be found are Bill Clinton and singer Emmy Lou Harris. Whether comedian Carrottop is one beets me.

I find that as ideology Vegetarianism is perfect. You get to feel superior to the great majority of humanity and put them at a moral disadvantage without actually saying a word and can pontificate on matters moral and spiritual without any nagging sense of guilt. After all you have achieved dialectical synthesis by practising what you preach (there is always the question of Screaming Vegetables but we let that pass).

However, think of the food you're missing as you do all of that.