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We discussed this a while ago but I can't stop thinking about the use of the subjunctive/irrealis in hypotheticals. The traditional rule is
Merriam-Webster's Concise Dictionary of English Usage says (page 712):
Wordmatic said:
If MWCDEU is right and "was" and "were" have been used in hypothetical statements with equal frequency for the past 200 years, then why do some people insist on the traditional rule? Where did the traditional rule come from anyway? Or is the MWCDEU wrong? This site will not make anything clearer. | ||
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I have been missing you, Goofy! Good to see you again. I loved your last link where they want to save the subjunctive mood.  It's sometimes amazing to me what types of things dust people's doilies! I will await expert opinion on this because I must say that the subjunctive mood has always confused me. Oftentimes the "were" instead of "was" just doesn't sound right to me. And let's not forget the famous U.S. song: "I wish I was an Oscar Meyer Weiner...." | |||
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I always use the subjunctive where the subjunctive is needed. Were I to use "was" instead of "were" in an instance of reference to a possible, rather than an actual, situation I would consider that I was being careless in my use of language. Richard English | |||
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Or the equally famous U.S. song "If I were a rich man (ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum)..." | |||
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I think I know: where variation is possible, it's common for some people to insist that one variant is right and the other wrong. But in fact both of these sentences are acceptable: 1 I wish I were a rich man 2 I wish I was a rich man However 3 He was asked if he were apprehensive. 4 I do not even know if she were actually a War Widow. Both 3 and 4 are attested, but MWCDEU says they are "considered hypercorrect by the few who notice." They are not expressing hypothetical statements, and imo "was" would sound better instead of "were" in them. So here's my rule for if clauses in standard English: In if clauses that express hypothetical statements, use either was or were in first and third person singular. In if clauses that do not express hypothetical statements, use was. | |||
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I would consider both of these incorrect. The first example is asking about how a person was feeling at a particular time. It is an enquiry about a fact, not a possibility and should take "was". I would have written it, "He was asked if he was feeling apprehensive". The second example is also about a fact. Was she, or was she not, at that time, a war widow? Yes or no. Not perhaps. The enquirer could then go on, assuming the answer is not known "...If she were a war widow, then this would happen, if no, then that would happen..." Richard English | |||
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quote: both of these sentences are acceptable quote: I would consider both of these incorrect Or "each of these sentences is ..." I know; I may be the only person left on the planet who cares about each/both.  | |||
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Each is; both are. Permissible alternatives to my mind. Richard English | |||
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This shows me that in all cases, "was" or "were" are acceptable. I know that most style manuals would back me up on this. The fact is, when people as knowledgeable about language as we are can't agree, I just can't say there is a right or wrong on this (with the possible exception of Shu!). We all have our pet peeves in language, wordnerd. Surely, Richard, the grammar mavens would say that each is correct in your usage, and your both is wrong. However, as with the "if he was," many agree that either way is right. My pet peeve (which I agree is over the top) is the use of fewer versus each. In my mind if I hear someone say, "I have less shoes than you do," I automatically change it to "fewer." Of course, it stays in my mind, though. | |||
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I didn't write, "both is". chose here to omit the verb (which is implied), and thus nobody could know which verb I omitted! I wrote, "I would consider both of these incorrect." I could have written: "I would consider each of these is incorrect." Or "I would consider both of these are incorrect". Either would be right. So far as the use of less and fewer is concerned, I agree with you 100%. Richard English | |||
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Did you not notice the itallics Richard? I don't think Kalleh was saying you used "both is". She was saying that your use of "both" might be considered by some to be wrong. In fact, now I look at it as you quoted it, even without the itallics it clearly says
not
"No man but a blockhead ever wrote except for money." Samuel Johnson. | |||
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It is interesting that though the use of the so-called past subjunctive form if I were varies with non-standard if I was, the use of the so-called present subjunctive form doesn't. Compare (1) I ask that he be discharged with (2) ?I ask that he is discharged. I don't think I have ever heard a native speaker of English say the latter. Of course, the form's use, in idioms such as (3) be that as it may, (4) God save the King, (4) suffice it to say, etc., admits of no substitution. Part of the problem seems to be that were seems more of past plural form and is easily replace with was when in concord with singular subjects, but be just seems plain anomalous. [Edited to keep the yapping lapdogs at bay away.]This message has been edited. Last edited by: zmježd, —Ceci n'est pas un seing. | |||
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In some cases there's a difference in meaning depending on whether you use the subjunctive or the indicative: I insist that he take his medecine. I insist that he takes his medecine. In the second sentence, you're not making a command, you're insisting that a certain thing is true. The fact that the present subjunctive has such a different distribution than were in if clauses is exactly the reason that some people consider were to not be the subjunctive at all. And altho zmježd says that if I was is non-standard, I'd say that both are standard in hypothetical statements, assuming that MWCDEU is right that was and were are used interchangeably.This message has been edited. Last edited by: goofy, | |||
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I agree with you, Goofy, about about if I was not being non-standard. And, yet, I don't think I agree with you about those two sentences meaning something different. While I see your point about the second sentence, I believe it also could be interpreted like the first sentence. Given that, it makes it a confusing sentence to use. | |||
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How about: the first sentence has one interpretation, but the second one is ambiguous, it has two possible interpretations. This still illustrates the difference between subjunctive and indicative. ... but this has nothing at all to do with "was" and "were". | |||
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Yes, Goofy, I could agree with that. | |||
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