In a Linked-In forum entitled "Bi-Lingual Professionals (French and English)", we are having a discussion on the topic of a perceived increase in the use of 'female', as a noun, in contexts where one might have expected the term 'woman' to be used. You can find the discussion here:
Battle of the words

You may have to join LinkedIn, & perhaps even the group, in order to view the discussion-- & you may not wish to do do-- so I'll post the oprning gambit:

quote:

I have noticed that we are using more and more the word female and less and less the word woman.
I always thought of female being more an adjective than a noun, even if, yes I know, it is also a noun.
I’m bilingual (UK-FR) and the fact that as an adjective it translates as “femelle” in French, I don’t think it translates well as a noun. Maybe it’s just me !

For me, a woman is a person, female is a gender and I’d like to feel that I am a little more than just a gender. I’m a human being, not just a gender!

Am I right or have I lost the plot here ?
Calling for the opinion of the women, and even better of the ladies.

Obviously I'd like male opinions as well. Have you encountered sn increasing usage of 'male/female' as opposed to 'man/woman'-- especially used as an apposite noun, e.g., 'female celebrities', 'male nurses'?

The context should be noted: in French, the term 'femelle', a noun, is used almost exclusively in biology. It is about sex, & usually about animals. There is a suggestion in the forum that in English, 'female' is used more commonly than in French to refer to female humans, but that its use may be pejoritive. (The forum consensus is that in French it is pejorative when referring to women.)

How does one use the related French word, "femme?"
I don't know French to any great degree, but it seems to me that it could be used without stigma, unless your group has members who use "femme" in colloquial English.

As for "woman," etymologically it suggests a wife, thus depersonalizes the person. Slippery slope territory. Whatever terms one uses, it's going to offend someone!

PS: The Linkedin link takes me to your account.
I deleted myself from Linkedin since I'm not a "professional," thus won't be able to see the original.

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff:


As for "woman," etymologically it suggests a wife, thus depersonalizes the person. Slippery slope territory. Whatever terms one uses, it's going to offend someone!

"Woman" is from Old English wif man "female person", contrasted with wer man "male person".

quote:

"Woman" is from Old English wif man "female person", contrasted with wer man "male person".

Some say that the word was originally wo2man, but Old English feminists made them take out the "2".

This reminds me of one of our first threads here. Do you remember the "wives" thread, Geoff?

Anyway, I agree that "female" is a gender. I much prefer "woman." I haven't noticed, however, that "female" is being used more.

It's interesting because at different times and from different people I have heard

a) you should say lady not woman because woman is offensive and
b) you should say woman not lady because lady is offensive

and

c) you should use ms not miss or mrs because they define women (or possibly ladies) by their marital status
d) you should use miss or mrs because ms is just patronising

I imagine that the idea of female instead of woman or lady is something similar though it would be interesting to know if there has been a genuine rise in its frequency or if this is a case of the recency illusion.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BobHale,

Well, I've noticed that "policespeak" seems to use "male" or "female," seldom (or never) "man" or "woman."

It seems that every word at some time has been considered offensive.

Hugh Rawson, in Rawson’s Dictionary Of Euphemisms And Other Doubletalk (Castle Books, 2002), p. 163 under "female", says:

quote:

When Vassar Female College was established, the editor of Godey’s Lady’s Book, Mrs Sarah Josepha Hale, protested loudly. She argued that “female” was not in good taste because "many writers employ the word as a noun, which, when applied to women, is improper and sounds unpleasantly, as referring to an animal.

It took six years but she finally prevailed and the offending word was removed (Jane Mills, in Womanwords: A Dictionary of Words About Women ( Longman (UK), 1989), pp. 266-267).

For a more long-winded version see my earlier post (August 23, 2003).

Why would "lady" be offensive?

Possibly because of association with "lady of the night", possibly considered patronising by association with "little lady".

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
Why would "lady" be offensive?

I wouldn't call it offensive, exactly, but it is falling into disuse here as a general term, no? In my childhood it was considered the polite term for 'woman' but I think that's no longer true. 'Woman' has gained substance since the womens' movement. And 'lady' is perhaps becoming politically incorrect due to the overtones of 'well-bred', often enough code for upper-crust, DAR, etc.

You mean "broad" and "bimbo" have fallen into disfavor?

I wish I had been in the South Pacific during the war. It looks like fun.

I still think of "lady" as a polite word for women. I guess I am old fashioned.

Bob, I do know about "lady of the night" and "little lady," but in general I think it's quite positive.

Ever notice a Volvo emblem? It's the male gender symbol. So, I suppose we could call men and women volvos and vulvas.

I had not noticed, but I found this about it online.

Hi Brethee5;

Per your original post, we touched on this in the thread about Journalese. The "new-speak" nouns "male" and "female" are free of age implications. For example, a 16-year old boy is a "male", but probably not a "man". Journalists and police prefer the general terms "male" and "female" to avoid having their comments carry those age implications.

Personally, I wince every time I run across this usage, but it does serve a practical purpose!

I've heard a 17-year-old man or woman, and it does sound strange. I guess I prefer "male" and "female."

Referring to (linguistic) gender we talk about "masculine" or "feminine". They are also used as a sort of intensive: a masculine man is particularly male and a feminine woman is noticeably female; a "manly man" and a "girly girl" if you will.

'Tis so, arnie, and taken to absurdity in the video pf South Pacific posted earlier. "...girly, womany, female, feminine dame."

Nobody's yet addressed my question whether "femme" might be appropriate among bilingual English/French speakers. Bethree???

Hi Geoff;

"Femme" is probably not a good general substitute for "woman", for it tends to get used in a very specific few ways in English, as follows:

• British:"A lesbian who takes a traditionally feminine sexual role; often contrasted with butch.";
• American:"A lesbian or an effeminate male homosexual who takes a traditionally feminine sexual role; often contrasted with butch.";
• in the French phrase "femme-fatale" when it means "a woman who is mysteriously alluring and who [knowingly?] uses that quality to lead men astray or into danger"; and
• in the French phrase "cherchez la femme", meaning "look for the woman", where this is understood to carry the sexist implication (tinged with the jocular) that every problem has a woman at the bottom of it, particularly any problem where men are also involved.

I got the first two usages off the internet, and the others are my interpretation of matters. The usages all can be seen either to carry either a faint or a strong sense of the pejorative, depending on how you view sexism and sexuality in our society.

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As for using "lady" as a substitute for "woman", I tend to dislike it unless used in the phrase "ladies and gentlemen" or, perhaps, in some similar narrow way that doesn't come to mind at the moment. I considering casually referring to someone as a "lady", when "woman" would do, to be a "flowery common-place" (that descriptive phrase being one my mother might have used!). Another "flowery common-place" that produces in me a similar reaction - if much stronger - is my encountering any of the very common "passed away", "passed on", or "passed" as a substitute for "died". I abhor this particular euphemistic pap, and never use it myself. Of course, these are all merely opinions I offer up for comment without support. That said, on reflection, I see "lady" (as a simple substitute for "woman", I mean) as carrying a mildly condescending or conciliatory quality that may have something of a sexist element in the same way that offering management courses for women does.

Aside: Euphemistic expressions around "death" give me a pain in the sitter! I'll admit I may carry this to excess when I say that I had my very old pet cat (that was with me 20 years) "killed", rather than "put down" to end its wee life!

I agree with WW about the use of 'femme'. Although the word alone in French doesn't really carry much baggage, there are definite pejorative overtones when used by Anglophones, even ones who know French as well as English. In addition, I don't really see much need to import a foreign word when 'woman' or 'lady' - or indeed 'female' in some circumstances - could be used. 'Female' is of course related to 'femme' anyway.

But... but... we've been importing French words and phrases since 1066!

WW, I did consider that "femme" might be problematic among Anglophones in general, but for those who speak both languages, I think it might carry a different weight. I could be wrong, of course, as you've pointed out.

Still awaiting Bethree's thinking.

quote:

But... but... we've been importing French words and phrases since 1066!

Too true, whether we like it or not!