Took me a few minutes to stop laughing before I could vote. Funny!

Like most multiple choice polls, this is more about the pollster than the polled. My choice ain't even on the map.

I pronounce fire in two syllables /'faj@r/ because that's how I've always pronounced it, and I really don't care how much CJ tries to browbeat me with his strawman controversy (pronounced in four syllables with the primary stress on the second one to annoy).

quote:

---

Like most multiple choice polls, this is more about the pollster than the polled. My choice ain't even on the map.

---

Ditto.
It was a waste of time posting it.

What they said.

Quote, "...Like most multiple choice polls, this is more about the pollster than the polled. My choice ain't even on the map..."

I agree. I pronounce "admire" and words like it, with two syllable because that is the correct UK English pronunciation. And it is, as well, the way that the Oxford English Dictionary suggests it be pronounced.

So far as Merriam Webster is concerned, I'm afraid I don't know the lady. Is she American?

I know know that Bugs Bunny (from Brooklyn, apparently) uses a trisyllabic pronunciation but it will be a long while before I use the accent of a cartoon rabbit as a model for my speech!

More seriously - trying to find a "standard" pronunciation is a task doomed to failure. Even Word regognises 13 different versions of English - and I am sure there are more - all with their own different accents, vocabulary and pronunciations.

Let's just accept that some rhymes won't work as well in some forms of English as in others. After all, poets have, surely, coped with this for long enough for it not to be a major issue.

" . . . it will be a long while before I use the accent of a cartoon rabbit as a model for my speech!"

I, on the other hand, being a puppeteer and storyteller, OFTEN use talent such as Mel Blanc as a role model! Long live different accents! Hip hip hooray!!!

I pronounce fire in two syllables /'faj@r/ because that's how I've always pronounced it, and I really don't care how much CJ tries to browbeat me with his strawman controversy (pronounced in four syllables with the primary stress on the second one to annoy).

Yet, have you checked a dictionary, jheem? The dictionaries clearly say it is one syllable.

My, aren't people crabby today? I think it is a perfectly sensible question, and I, like CW, had a hoot reading it. I admit that I say "admire," like "fire" with an "ad" in front, with 3 syllables.

I pronounce "admire" and words like it, with two syllable because that is the correct UK English pronunciation. And it is, as well, the way that the Oxford English Dictionary suggests it be pronounced.

Ya know what the funny part of all these Brits' answers is? I spoke to them when I was in England, and I specifically asked Bob to pronounce "fire." He said it no differently than I do. He just hears 1 syllable, while I hear 2. I didn't ask arnie or Richard, unfortunately, but I am sure the same is true. The fact is, the same is probably true with all those Oxfordians, as well.

I had a good laugh reading it too.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kalleh:
Ya know what the funny part of all these Brits' answers is? I spoke to them when I was in England, and I _specifically_ asked Bob to pronounce "fire." He said it no differently than I do. He just hears 1 syllable, while I hear 2.

---

I can vouch that this is true - same goes for 'oil' and the like. I've never heard anyone with any West Midlands accent pronounce the above words as one syllable, unless they're trying to speak 'properly'. I even pronounce 'coin' with two syllables at times, much to my chagrin.

I'm with jheem though that it's more like one and a half syllables, especially the words ending in 'l' (whereas I can easily say 'fire' as one syllable, I can't pronounce 'oil' as such without choking on the 'l').

Well, you see the same goes for "world." I had a double dactyl (and a limerick) criticized because I had considered the word to be pronounced, "wor-uld."

I have been sitting here seeing how someone would even consider one syllable in "fire" as "proper English," and I don't get it. If I say it really fast, almost like "far," I can see it. But, then, it doesn't sound like "proper English" to me.

I would think everyone could at least vote. Sheesh! This isn't exactly the presidential elections.

okay, I'm gonna sound in here.

Syllabification (is that a word? If not it should be) is dependent upon two very unique sets of rules. The written rules are very specific about how words are separated; the spoken rules are far looser.

A word like fire is one syllable when written; however spoken language generally gives it two syllables: fi er. Unless you live in the deep south and cook your food over a fahr.

My grad advisor for my ph.d. program had done considerable study regarding poetry, especially limericks, and the dependence upon spoken syllables vs. written rules when counting beat and determining rhyme.

Clear as mud?

Fire; world; two syllables for poetry and speaking. One syllable for strict written word rules.

Yet, have you checked a dictionary, jheem? The dictionaries clearly say it is one syllable.


K., that's cuz I didn't look it up in the dictionary, and specxifically said it's how I pronounce it. The problem with final r and l is that these two sounds can be syllabic in English: cf. bottle, batter. Final nasals are more problematic: cf. button, loving, bottom.

What it really boils down to is what is your definition of syllable. I would disagree with jo, in that I don't feel that the two types of syllables she's talking about are the same thing. In spoken language syllables are something involving phonology, but in written language they're something else: something to do with writing and hyphenization.

If you take a word that ends in a stop, e.g., pot, to my mind it's easy to say that it has one syllable. The problem with liquids and nasals is that they can be syllabic on their own, so when you mouche one onto the end of a written syllable you get the 1.5 effect that I and others have mentioned. The word fight is pretty simply one syllable, but the word fire is more than one ...

um...er.... and this would be disagreeing with me how? I think I said the same thing as you; that is, that the two are NOT the same. One is phonology, the other writing and hyphenization. I think that's what I said, using different words. Or have I gone completely senile?

This is a worthless poll. If, as CJ says, "the subject of syllables is so crucial to what we're doing with The OEDILF Project." he might try approaching it with a little more seriousness. Maybe this is another one of his jokes.

As jheem pointed out, the answer depends on your definition of a syllable. The Glossary Of Linguistic Terms, offers one definition:

quote:

---

A syllable is a unit of sound composed of (1) a central peak of sonority (usually a vowel), and (2) the consonants that cluster around this central peak.

---

The original discussion starts here.

Tinman

First off, thank you Caterwauler and Kalleh for taking the poll in the spirit in which it was intended.

Secondly, I am honestly sorry if I've upset some of the residents of Fort Stodgy since this was truly not my intention. I recognize that I seem to have this effect on people over here but I've been away awhile and simply forgot. I do apologize.

Lastly, I don't think the poll was a waste of time but even if it were, it's my time to waste. As busy as life has been for me lately, I would never intentionally waste time, mine or yours, but I do see that my intended humor, for the most part, fell flat. Again, my fault and I apologize. One must always remember one's audience.

But the question is a valid one and I truly was (and still am) looking for honest answers. With this in mind, allow me to re-post the poll in a more straight-forward manner. All serious input is appreciate.

(Hell, all frivolous input is appreciated, but that's just me.)

Or have I gone completely senile?

No, but I was quite sleepy when I posted. I'll go back and reread your post.

"residents of Fort Stodgy?" Oh dear, Oh my... let me put on my gloves; where IS my hat, I know I had it right there on the table; are these the correct shoes?

Now that I'm put together properly, I do believe I can step outside and assess the situation. If I get it right, the people who fuss over the proper number of syllables for a correct and "true" limerick, who use lists of approved and "real" rhymes are upset when the denizens of Fort Stodgy make the initial assessment that a poll regarding syllabification is real?

Though my English teachers and my diction coach will roll over in their graves, I can only say "wow!"

Fort Stodgy

Look, you come strollin' in with yer polls at a gallup, elevatin' gimcracks to a national poetic form, and I'm from Fort Deviltakeye? If I could remember where I put my Bailey's fat ole wordbook, I'd heave it upside yer head, rhetorically. Dag nab it!

Now, back to words: stodgy < stodge 'thick, filling food' < stodge 'to cram'.

Secondly, I am honestly sorry if I've upset some of the residents of Fort Stodgy since this was truly not my intention. I recognize that I seem to have this effect on people over here but I've been away awhile and simply forgot. I do apologize.

Fort Stodgy? The responses here rather sounded like that to me. I was surprised, frankly. The quiz was lighthearted, for heaven's sake! And, fun! How can we say some post is a waste of time when much of what we do is fun. Is 6-Letters a waste of time? Or the Anagram game (or whatever it's called now)? Or the Bluffing game? What about all our beer posts? Or our jokes? We have fun here too.

CJ, there is no need to apologize to us. I, however, apologize to you.

Now that I'm put together properly, I do believe I can step outside and assess the situation. If I get it right, the people who fuss over the proper number of syllables for a correct and "true" limerick, who use lists of approved and "real" rhymes are upset when the denizens of Fort Stodgy make the initial assessment that a poll regarding syllabification is real?

OTOH, Jo makes a great point (and funny, too! ). I have had to laugh at the seriousness that OEDILF treats some of those limericks. A week's debate as to whether we should use a ellipsis or an em dash, when clearly the Chicago Manual of Style says it is a matter of style? Or, when discussing limericks, being worried if we are politically incorrect when writing about women's gonads? I keep saying to them, "These are limericks after all!"

Maybe we all should lighten up a bit.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chris J. Strolin:
First off, thank you Caterwauler and Kalleh for taking the poll in the spirit in which it was intended.

---

Erm...me too (see above).


(And cross-threading, there's nothing wrong with an ellipsis to indicate a pause, particularly a faltering one. You GO with your ellipsis if you want to, Kalleh! )

Awww, Cat, he missed you! That's probably because that naughty old CJ never posts here anymore because he is too good for us now, with his big project and all. You and Caterwauller are relatively new to him, and he probably thought you were one and the same.

Before OEDILF CJ was a regular here, almost from the beginning of wordcraft. Some of us miss him.

How can we say some post is a waste of time when much of what we do is fun.

I did not say it was a waste of time. I said that it wasn't really a valid poll. (Like most polls I see, it tells me way more about the pollster than it does about me or my peers.)

I then went on to answer the poll in the only way I felt comfortable answering it (on my terms). I gave the pollster the information he requested. Nor did I say that my pronunciation was the one and true holy grail RP way, thank you very much. Other people may have had other things to say.

For my time and effort I was rewarded with a snooty and peevish (times two if I include youse in too Ms K.) inclusion into the horror world of Ft Stodgy. "Thank you very much; please come again."

And for the humor impaired:

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jheem,

I did not say it was a waste of time. I said that it wasn't really a valid poll

Well, then, jheem, I wasn't talking about you. Some people did say "waste of time," though. And, really, do we ever have a valid poll here? I can't imagine how it would turn out if we polled for the presidential election!

Sorry you felt that I was "snooty and peevish," but I was a little taken aback by some of the replies here. CJ was just trying to post a fun poll in his own style. We all have our individual styles here, right? That happens to be his!

Look, you come strollin' in with yer polls at a gallup, elevatin' gimcracks to a national poetic form, and I'm from Fort Deviltakeye? If I could remember where I put my Bailey's fat ole wordbook, I'd heave it upside yer head, rhetorically. Dag nab it!

Now, back to words: stodgy < stodge 'thick, filling food' < stodge 'to cram'.

Now, how could anyone call our jheem "stodgy" with posts like that! You crack me up!

Sorry if I offended anyone here; and, since I had better cover all my bases, Tinman, I am sorry for apologizing.

I said it was a waste of time, and I still think so. CJ posted a poll and I doubt that anyone could honestly choose any one answer because of the excess baggage included in the answers. It was therefore a waste of time for CJ as he didn't get what I assume he wanted; some sort of consensus on how the word is pronounced. It was also a waste of time for those who read the post. If CJ posted it with solely humorous intent it could be said that it was less of a waste of time, as a couple of people found it funny, but not many.

Gottcha, arnie. The Churchill facies definitely fit with that post!

I have always enjoyed CJ's humor. I thought the "excess baggage" was funny. However, my kids have always accused me of having a warped sense of humor

I just felt a little bad for CJ. He hadn't been here in awhile ( ), and I was glad to see him back. Those of you who have posted with him before must admit that this post was no different from his other posts here (when he used to post with us).

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,

As has been said many times previously, humour does not always cross borders and this seems especially true in the case of US and UK humour - we even spell the word differently for goodness' sake!

I have found myself in trouble many times for posting a British-style joke on a US board. For example, self-Deprecating humour is common, and commonly understood, in the UK; I suspect this is not the case in the USA.

To post a poll it is definitely better to leave it as a poll and to eschew any humorous adjuncts since they will always detract from the poll's value.

The question that this poll needs to address is whether word such as "fire" have one syllable and a pure vowel sound ("fahr"), one syllable with the vowel sounded as a dipthong, ("fi-er)or two syllables (fi-yer" - as in Bugs Bunny-speak).

To me the difference lies in the stress. If the word is pronounced with the vowel as a dipthong (which is how we in the UK pronounce it) then it is stressed evenly and, although it has two merged vowel sounds, it has but one syllable.

Bugs Bunny stresses the first syllable, "Where's the FI-yer Mac?" and thus the word clearly has two syllables.

self-Deprecating humour is common,

It's common here, too...and funny. The lawyers, for example, are always telling lawyer jokes.

I don't buy it, Richard. Now, of course, the word in question was "admire," not "fire."
Those who didn't want to partake in the fun of the excess baggage (because to them it wasn't funny), fine. Then, just pick a choice with two or three in it. It seemed fairly easy to me.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kalleh:
Awww, Cat, he missed you! That's probably because that naughty old CJ never posts here anymore because he is too good for us now, with his big project and all. You and Caterwauller are relatively new to him, and he probably thought you were one and the same.

---

Not too good for you but, in all honesty, too busy to be posting as I had in the past. I've even taken leave from my regular job to be able to devote more time to getting The OEDILF up and running.

And yes, sorry Cat, I did have you confused with Caterwauller. My error and I do apologize. Definitely no slight intended since I did see and appreciate your post. And thanks as well to jo and jheem for jumping on the humor bandwagon (You were joking, right?) and for Kalleh for just all-around niceness.

Turns out there's a correct answer to the poll. I'll post it in the other thread.


(So a priest, a rabbi, and an OEDILFer walk into a bar...)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chris J. Strolin:
And yes, sorry Cat, I did have you confused with Caterwauller. My error and I do apologize.

---

Apology most graciously accepted CJ, from one feminist to another (as I remember fondly from my lurker days).

jo asks, "have I gone completely senile?"

Not possible, ma'am. (Definitionally, that is.) Anile perhaps, someday, but never senile.

[picky, picky, picky]