May I chime in on the is-it-or-ain't-it-a-limerick thread?

First of all, I haven't been following it from the beginning, so I'm guessing somewhat when I assume it's a wrangle between strict-constructionists (mostly as to meter, right? -- and not the rhyme scheme so much?) and, well, a "looser" view. If I'm wrong here, then consider the below a ramble on a (to some degree) related topic.

My lifelong experience with limericks is that the form is semi-anarchic, refuses to take itself (or anything else) too seriously, and thus allows considerable latitude -- poetic license? -- in the creative interpretation of its "official" schematic structure. As someone pointed out here, some of Lear's own limericks would fail to pass strict muster.
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I'd like to give an example from another field entirely: music. I love ragtime, not just Scott Joplin, but James Scott, Louis Chauvin, etc. -- but also contemporaries such as William Bolcom.

Ragtime has a fairly explicit structural definition: 4 movements of 16 bars each (almost a miniature version of classical sonata form), where the 4th section tends to repeat or recap the first; each movement divided into 2 8-bar sections, where the second starts out like the first but ends differently. Other criteria include steady bass backbone (no syncopation) and syncopated right hand. Usually the key is one of the basic ones (few sharps or flats) such as C, G, F, A, D, and there are few accidentals.

Bolcom composed a rag called "The Graceful Ghost" which violates pretty much all of these criteria, including being in the key of umpteen flats, gobs of double-sharps and double-flats, syncopated bass, etc. etc. -- and yet it is, somehow, unmistakably a rag, one of the most beautiful and haunting in fact (it's my other favorite along with Joplin's "Magnetic Rag" (his very last BTW)).

So, in that spirit, I tend to accept as a limerick virtually anything that looks like it's trying to be a limerick -- altho I might criticize it on stylistic or formal grounds, I don't outright and right out refuse it limerickship just because it tawks fonny.

So, that's my dos chavitos.

David

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As the workshoppers noted when you asked the same question on OEDILF, it's a nursery rhyme.

Sorry. I don't buy that.

It's as if I were discussing a drink with you and claimed it was a Chardonnay and you were to say, "It's not a Chardonnay, it's a wine".

I know it's a wine as I know that HDD is a nursery rhyme. But what is its form?

And yes, Wordnerd, I think every verse form has a name - and I believe the name for the form of HDD is "a limerick" - unless and until someone comes up with evidence to convince me otherwise.

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I love ragtime, not just Scott Joplin, but James Scott, Louis Chauvin, etc. -- but also contemporaries such as William Bolcom.

Me too!

Your argument, Richard, was, "If it's not a limerick, what is it?" My point was that that is not a logically valid argument. Your conclusion might nonetheless be right, but it's not proved by your argument.

Is it right? The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th lines of the rhyme are in iambic meter, which is not limerick meter. In the iambic each pair of stressed syllables within a line has one unstressed syllable lying between them; in a limerick each such pair of stresses is separated by two unstressed syllables.

That said, I quite agree with you that the rrhyme's 1st and 5th lines are perfect limerick lines, and that their duplication does not disqualify the rhyme as a limerick. My view is based solely on the other lines.

Perhaps one might call the rhyme a 'partial limerick' or a 'near limerick'. I'd think it's so close as to be a precursor of the limerick form.

Okay, I could accept a near limerick.

I can't believe I am about to say this after I have argued for more flexibility on OEDILF, but I do think there is more of system to limericks than you apparently do, Froeschlein. I agree with Wordnerd on the accepted format of a limerick. I found this site about limericks a good general description...and also kind of fun, which limericks should be.

What I hate is when people analyze limericks to death. When that happens, they no longer become fun, which is the intent of a limerick. That's also why I don't like serious limericks, though even I have written a few of them.

Interesting, is it not, that the site you link to has this to say:

"Limericks - The History
Variants of the form of poetry referred to as Limerick poems can be traced back to the fourteenth century English history. Limericks were used in Nursery Rhymes and other poems for children."

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What I hate is when people analyze limericks to death

I agree. Some of the newer WEs on OEDILF are very much like that and I have recently made this very point. OEDILF is a dictionary and my feeling is that the needs of definition should be subordinate to the needs of 100% correct meter or rhyme.

Even more should definition take precedence over cleverness or humour - the much workshopped "accretion" limerick is just one example, where the definition is neither made, exemplified or even hinted at.

Of course, the very best submissions are perfect limericks that combine humour and definition - and many of mine have been immeasurably improved and moved towards that desirable state by workshopping. But there comes a time when fine-tuning is self-defeating. It's a bit like trying to regulate a mechanical watch; rather than adjust the hairspring to try to eliminate a 5-second a day gaining error (and maybe introduce a 10-seond a day losing error)it's better to live with the error and accept it.

Regarding limerick taxonomy -- but first a little side observation: analyzing things to death is what people like this group's members DO for enjoyment (and that's NOT a criticism or a negative statement).

Kalleh, I actually didn't pin myself down as to how much latitude I think is allowable, but now that I know that the specimen on the examining table has 3 lines of iambic in its heart, I'll confess that I would not consider that a limerick, especially when those core lines' metre disagrees with that of its neighbours. A limerick is a fast waltz, not a polka -- a galop, if you will -- and it's certainly not a Dave Brubeck song, alternating 3/4 and 4/4 measures.

Back in my antediluvian college days, we used to sing a dirty drinking song whose verses were limericks and whose chorus included the immor(t)al phrase "in China they do it for Chili" (or "Green Stamps" or whatever fit). My rule-of-thumb test for limerickhood is if I can comfortably sing it to the tune of that song; this still allows a bit of latitude for sneaking in an extra syllable (or eliding one) now and then, especially at the beginning of a line.

And why not a few more limericks to cover my exit? These share an ecclesiastical theme:

A Jesuit slunk from his bunk
and stole from each novice’s trunk
their rosary beads.
Because of these deeds,
he’s now a felonious monk.

The Vicar of Dibley's a lassie
Encased in a double-wide chassis.
Risque repartee
Is her cuppa tea;
She's man-mad, irrev'rent & sassy.

In pastoral, puritan Brimley
begetting is done rather primly.
The new vicar said:
“Have more fun in bed!”
and Brimley obeyed him — but grimly.

David

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Limericks were used in Nursery Rhymes and other poems for children

Of course not all nursery rhymes are limericks. 'nuff said.

Great limericks, Froesch! I especially like the first one, as I taught at a Jesuit university for a number of years. As for the next two, they (ahem!) remind me of a very naughty limerick about a vicar.

Does The Vicar of Dibley appear on American TV? It's a pretty good sitcom starring the very funny (if weight-challenged) Dawn French.

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Of course not all nursery rhymes are limericks. 'nuff said.

I would say that very few are. I can't think af any nursery rhymes in limerick form apart from HDD.

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Originally posted by arnie:
Does The Vicar of Dibley appear on American TV? It's a pretty good sitcom starring the very funny (if weight-challenged) Dawn French.

Well it did some years back on (natch) public television, but we now watch our DVD collection, available on (of course) Amazon.

I think Dawn carries her weight -- not to mention her prominent prow -- rather well.

When watching an episode, don't switch off prematurely at the end: there's always a final bit during the credits when Dawn tells a (sometimes off-color) joke to her ditzy assistant, who either cannot get it, or reacts in some hilariously irrelevant manner.

David

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there's always a final bit during the credits

Agreed. I sometimes think the scriptwriters put more thought into that scene than into the rest of the show!